External View [A definitive discussion]

[Riedquat]

I think that's a limitation most people wanting an external view would be OK with. ie: You control the movement of your ship or your external droid, not both. And employ a few seconds "nerf" when deploying the droid and recovering it again?

We don't need drones or anything fancy like that, just do what space/flight sims have been doing for years.

An external camera that is slowly moveable and rotatable around your ship with a 2 second delay to activate and deactivate.

Would enable people to take some really nice screenshots, or films, which is also great publicity for the game.

It would not offer any advantage during combat and will only add to the whole experience.

Like I said before though, I think they will see the light and add this in the future, its a big feature to leave out.

 

[Zieman]

We don't need drones or anything fancy like that, just do what space/flight sims have been doing for years.

An external camera that is slowly moveable and rotatable around your ship with a 2 second delay to activate and deactivate.

Would enable people to take some really nice screenshots, or films, which is also great publicity for the game.

It would not offer any advantage during combat and will only add to the whole experience.

Like I said before though, I think they will see the light and add this in the future, its a big feature to leave out.

Simple and clever. +1

 

[NeilF]

We don't need drones or anything fancy like that, just do what space/flight sims have been doing for years.

An external camera that is slowly moveable and rotatable around your ship with a 2 second delay to activate and deactivate.

Would enable people to take some really nice screenshots, or films, which is also great publicity for the game.

It would not offer any advantage during combat and will only add to the whole experience.

Like I said before though, I think they will see the light and add this in the future, its a big feature to leave out.

I basically concur... But if it's dressed up as a droid being deployed - to explain the X second delay activating it and deactivating it - that's fine by me!

And if the external view is optionally viewable on a HUD screen in your cockpit or fullscreen, great!

 

[Mentski]

It's the way people argue against an idea like this that sums up why I don't regularly post here.

Waaa waa break immersion. Waa waa FD have said they're not going to do it. Waa waa I don't want it so shut up.

So many closed minds here. You realise this is meant to be a game, right? You realise games are fun... Right? Right????

How DARE somebody want external view. How DARE somebody want rudimentary support for in-game guilds/associations.

It's not in FD's plans for the game? Fine. But last I looked FD was run by human beings, and human beings from time to time change their minds.

 

[NeilF]

It's the way people argue against an idea like this that sums up why I don't regularly post here.

Waaa waa break immersion. Waa waa FD have said they're not going to do it. Waa waa I don't want it so shut up.

So many closed minds here. You realise this is meant to be a game, right? You realise games are fun... Right? Right????

How DARE somebody want external view. How DARE somebody want rudimentary support for in-game guilds/associations.

It's not in FD's plans for the game? Fine. But last I looked FD was run by human beings, and human beings from time to time change their minds.

If someone has a valid reason why it might break something in the gameplay, fine.

But like yourself, if an external view can be offered that basically doesn't affect general gameplay, then surely we all win as we all have the option to use or not

The more I've spoken to people and the more I've thought about it, the more hopeful I've because that an external view will exist. I suspect FD will give us a droid to achieve it. BUT:-
1) My concern is it may be limited and not let people enjoy the game as much as they would with a more traditional external view.
2) Why have FD not put the matter to rest and told us how such a feature will work? Maybe it's simply still being tweaked/discussed? Hopefully the matter will be cleared up soon, or when the beta is released all will become clear!

 

[TheWombat]

For those that are looking to have an external view for taking screen shots... How about having two keys that can be used for doing screen shots. One that includes the cockpit overlay, and one that doesn't.

This doesn't solve the other requests that people have, but for screenshots would work without providing balance issues.

TheWombat

 

[NeilF]

For those that are looking to have an external view for taking screen shots... How about having two keys that can be used for doing screen shots. One that includes the cockpit overlay, and one that doesn't.

This doesn't solve the other requests that people have, but for screenshots would work without providing balance issues.

TheWombat

Yes, that would seem a nice easy win! - Someone else mentioned it so it's in the OP under "Compromises/Alternatives: Cockpit'less screenshot"

 

[Crayfish]

I don't see much combat advantage in being able to switch to a third person view. Usually you're much more accurate with your fire when in first person. The extra field of view is nice but is dwarfed by the advantage that head tracking gives and nobody is complaining about that.

There is also the point that if both pilots have the option to use this "advantage" then is it really an advantage? An advantage usually means that one party has options that are not available to the second party.

There is one scenario where a third person view really can be an advantage and that is when hiding. In every game where 3PV has been available I've used it to watch enemies whilst safely remaining hidden from their sight. The interesting thing about this advantage is that it's not removed by putting in a delay.

My feeling is that if an advantage is given to anybody then giving it to a player that is passively hiding behind an asteroid is mostly harmless.

 

[noodle]

There is also the point that if both pilots have the option to use this "advantage" then is it really an advantage? An advantage usually means that one party has options that are not available to the second party.

Indeed. And my joystick might give me an advantage over people using gamepads, which is arguably worse, because they'd need to spend money to level the field.

There is one scenario where a third person view really can be an advantage and that is when hiding. In every game where 3PV has been available I've used it to watch enemies whilst safely remaining hidden from their sight. The interesting thing about this advantage is that it's not removed by putting in a delay.

My feeling is that if an advantage is given to anybody then giving it to a player that is passively hiding behind an asteroid is mostly harmless.

Yeah. And thinking about it, it would seem a bit ridiculous that stealthy pilots wouldn't have a means for looking around asteroids. I don't see that as a problem.

 

[NeilF]

I don't see much combat advantage in being able to switch to a third person view. Usually you're much more accurate with your fire when in first person. The extra field of view is nice but is dwarfed by the advantage that head tracking gives and nobody is complaining about that.

I tend to agree, especially when you've lost your HUD too!

And if there's a time penalty moving in/out of an external view (droid deployment) it's even less combat friendly!

There is also the point that if both pilots have the option to use this "advantage" then is it really an advantage? An advantage usually means that one party has options that are not available to the second party.

Agreed!

I would suggest a clear example of an advantage is someone with a head tracker or Oculus rift vs a player without one. Most likely they will be able to look around their surroundings and track other ships far more efficiently.

There is one scenario where a third person view really can be an advantage and that is when hiding. In every game where 3PV has been available I've used it to watch enemies whilst safely remaining hidden from their sight. The interesting thing about this advantage is that it's not removed by putting in a delay.

My feeling is that if an advantage is given to anybody then giving it to a player that is passively hiding behind an asteroid is mostly harmless.

That's my take on it too!

 

[Philip Coutts]

Haven't we already had the definitive discussion on the external view, that would be the discussion from Frontier where they said, "you aren't getting one".....

If you are looking for an external view there are other games that will do this (such as Limit Theory).

 

[NeilF]

Haven't we already had the definitive discussion on the external view, that would be the discussion from Frontier where they said, "you aren't getting one".....

See OP, "What we do know" - [ Click here! ]

Suggestion is we might get one via the explanation of an external drone. Question is what it will offer...

My guess is if there is no reasonable external view, a good number of people will be disappointed, and most of them will be asking, "Why not?"

If you are looking for an external view there are other games that will do this (such as Limit Theory).

Sorry, that's a bit of a daft point.

It's like suggesting if someone wants a screenshot button in ED when one isn't offered, "Don't ask for one, go play something else!"

 

[Riedquat]

Haven't we already had the definitive discussion on the external view, that would be the discussion from Frontier where they said, "you aren't getting one".....

If you are looking for an external view there are other games that will do this (such as Limit Theory).

lol, nice try.

 

[Philip Coutts]

Sorry, that's a bit of a daft point.

It's like suggesting if someone wants a screenshot button in ED when one isn't offered, "Don't ask for one, go play something else!"

I don't think it is a daft point. If you went to buy a car and you stipulated you wanted one that was 4 wheel drive, you wouldn't buy a 2 wheel drive and then try and convert it to a 4 wheel drive by talking at it for hours on end? If you want a game that has a third person view, buy a game that has a third person view. I was only offering an alternative to flogging what is now a very mushy dead horse....

 

[NeilF]

I don't think it is a daft point. If you went to buy a car and you stipulated you wanted one that was 4 wheel drive, you wouldn't buy a 2 wheel drive and then try and convert it to a 4 wheel drive by talking at it for hours on end? If you want a game that has a third person view, buy a game that has a third person view. I was only offering an alternative to flogging what is now a very mushy dead horse....

Sorry, I'll stick to my original comment.

See "Purpose" in the OP - [ Click here! ]

 

[Riedquat]

I don't think it is a daft point. If you went to buy a car and you stipulated you wanted one that was 4 wheel drive, you wouldn't buy a 2 wheel drive and then try and convert it to a 4 wheel drive by talking at it for hours on end? If you want a game that has a third person view, buy a game that has a third person view. I was only offering an alternative to flogging what is now a very mushy dead horse....

Its not a dead horse, as they have mentioned -

There's no third person view for flying the ship, the game is about you in your cockpit and based around that central premise. There may be some external cameras views in certain situations, but the game is played as a commander in the cockpit.

-----

We are not talking about third person views for flying the ship, we are talking about being able to view your ship from an external camera.



and as Sandro apparently said on the alpha forums :

Just to clarify: the first person only view was not implemented because of any multiplayer consideration - it was a design choice that we feel supports the "you are in the world" experience we're aiming for. Obviously, I'm not saying you have to agree that it was a good choice though!

Having said that, from the outset Elite: Dangerous has pretty much always been aimed at multiplayer that includes adverserial play; this is why we are also looking at a groupling system, to allow players who wish to avoid the stress to still enjoy the game with mutually co-operative friends. Again, I'm not saying "we're right!", I'm just explaining the reasoning behind our choices.

In truth, there is still a long way to go and still a lot of change possible.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

There is also the point that if both pilots have the option to use this "advantage" then is it really an advantage? An advantage usually means that one party has options that are not available to the second party.

I strongly disagree becasue in this instance the way to negate the advantage is to use a mode which is totally at odds with the game DB is trying to make.

This is a similar logic to WarThunder. The controls are nerfed so much in the arcade view to allow KB&M that it is actually by far the easiest solution so everyone uses it even though it is no where near as enjoyable as cockpit view with a stick. Yes there is the simulation mode but that is too hardcore for most with huge wait times to get a game and lots of other down time

Imagine if you were playing an online racing simulation, would you say, you want car damage off in your car game as an option? By the same logic it isnt an advantage because everyone else can choose to turn the damage off if they choose....

The extra field of view is nice but is dwarfed by the advantage that head tracking gives and nobody is complaining about that.

because this advantage is gained as a side effect of the game being bought CLOSER to the vision of DB et al, not taking away from it.

 

[Riedquat]

There is no advantage.

What sort of advantage do you think having a slow rotatable camera with a 2sec activate/deactive delay will give you?

 

[Rog]

Haven't we already had the definitive discussion on the external view, that would be the discussion from Frontier where they said, "you aren't getting one".....

If you are looking for an external view there are other games that will do this (such as Limit Theory).

Just in case people have the wrong impression, this is what nobody wants - an arcade mode like these:

We just want a simple external view to enjoy the glorious visuals in the game. We do not want 'advantage in combat' (because multiplayer PvP combat balance is all that matters it seems ).

The suggested handicaps/nerfs are to assuage the naysayers, some of whom are so entrenched that apparently nothing will change their mind. They are of course entitled to their view.

On the other hand, the people who would like to enjoy the external visuals seem pretty willing to accept a large number of viewer 'nerfs'.

Can we remember that the game will be exploring, trading, wandering about, whatever... and multiplayer combat. Much of which will be with NPCs.

It isn't Call of Duty in Spaaace.

Have I said we really don't want an arcade God's-eye view like Freelancer?



(Apologies if you are the 0.7% that would like a Freelancer type view.)

 

[NeilF]

This is a similar logic to WarThunder. The controls are nerfed so much in the arcade view to allow KB&M that it is actually by far the easiest solution so everyone uses it even though it is no where near as enjoyable as cockpit view with a stick. Yes there is the simulation mode but that is too hardcore for most with huge wait times to get a game and lots of other down time

This is interesting... Can you elaborate on this?

So in this flight sim, they struggled with a similar issue where external (arcade view?) could give a competitive advantage? How did they address it? And you imply people use the external view still to get an advantage?