External View [A definitive discussion]

[Darian]

Although I agree and I wish it happened, I doubt the FD change something. I think the FD took some wrong decisions along the way, including the lack of outside view of your own ship, where any combat simulator better and more realistic than ED, has it.

There is always hope, i do not hold my breath though... the way i have seen the presentation one has the feeling the frontier crew is the opinion that noone else did something so marvelous. To be honest, if Elite was not one of my first and then best games i played on an computer i question if i would really play it now, there is an lack of back ground story, a lot of things are very basic, trade has a lot of things to trade, but as soon one has more than 5 tons cargo space and a few hundred credits only ten at most really make sense to lugg around.

3rd person view is for me not even in the middle of the "things that should be done" list.

First one for me would be hard cold numbers on weapons (and some other gear) we tack onto our ships so one knows what they really do, and one has not to remove and stick back on piece by piece to find out why the shiny ship always overheats.

It is all guess and try out with the dumbed down way weapons especially are displayed, not talking about weapons who are pretty much dead weight, if i stick my nose into an anaconda and pull the trigger of my cannon that thing should have trouble to miss that very big and very near ship? no? wrong!

I give it that ED has really few bugs for its age, but it is too right now very very basic, and i do not talk about not enough ships, if they sort out some other stuff i am quite content.

 

[Deyn]

I gave the neg rep because dozens of time in this discussion people for unknown reason associate external views with some "console arcade" stuff.
On the other hand I can assure you that external views wont hurt the complexity of the Elite and are present and used widely in sophisticated PC simulators and helps (in my opinion) increase player immersion.

^^^This!

 

[Foxbat2014]

It would look cool

Why would the ability to look at your ship ruin the game? You don't have to look if you don't want to. It would just add another aspect to the games visuals and it would look cool.

 

[Deyn]

External view control EVA & stations only

This is immersion View attachment 7258

So when you watch your own body floating through space from astral projection that is "immersion"???

 

[Vasea Azure]

I think what he meant is - EVa view -you are this astronaut

 

[Deyn]

I can agree to one thing - in WWII simulator external view does indeed gives you a big advantage in form of extra situational awareness.
But in Elite when we rely on radar and "incoming missile" message etc sticking your head outside will makes you more blind and unaware of the situation.
For example using external view in DCS is a suicide because you're losing all your advantages in terms of radar and gauges.

...it's not just the radar and gauges. Even in a Bf-109 K-4 against some Mustang P-51D, when I go external in combat (just try it) you will use your Situational Awareness, as in "I have eyes on the bogey"... if you just keep outside the cockpit, for a few seconds and get back again you need to readjust and visually aquire the bogey again.
That is where you have lost precious seconds for maneuvering in a shooting position or might overshoot or stall, if you're not careful...
A simple check six or glance at the mirror is far better in dogfight.

The whole advantage argument comes from Egoshooters, where campers lurk somewhere and monitor around a corner or down a hill, yet there is no corners or hills in space...
And even IF(!) there would be the fear of an advantage against other players, what is the issue not to get external cam in Solo Mode where you encounter NPCs, only?

 

[Vasea Azure]

Apparently some commanders are afraid that external view in solo mode will make people farm wanted npc faster. They were serious about it. - insert facepalm pic here ...

 

[Darian]

Apparently some commanders are afraid that external view in solo mode will make people farm wanted npc faster. They were serious about it. - insert facepalm pic here ...

And that is why i hate to play in mmo, i have to deal with A.. unpleasant people all day, why should i inflict that on me after work? And you get them in every mmo, the campers, the gankers and the all out personal poor hygiene trolls.

 

[Vasea Azure]

Thats why I was upset about scrapped offline mode that could be separated from the online part and had some extra features like the one that we are discussing here.

 

[Soulstain]

Heh, no trackIR is nothing for pvp like 3rd person view is for pvp. You just sound inexperienced in this sort of thing.

Phier, no offence. I would like to have a mature conversation about this, so let's talk apples to apples.
What simulation games do you regularly play? Falcon 4.0, DCS for example. I just want to make sure you're not comparing to games like war thunder or world of warplanes etc. Those are obviously not sims.

EVERY hard core sim on the market has 3rd person views. Nobody who wants to survive in a simulated dogfight in a HARD CORE sim would EVER use 3rd person while in a dogfight. You will die, die, die. Yes it can be quickly used for situational awareness because in a computer game we can not simulate peripheral vision which we obviously have in real life. TracIR is the closest we can come to simulating this. It is not a cheat, it does not break immersion, it adds to immersion and removes the FAKE situation of not being able to see around you. In a real cockpit you are in a bubble and you can look all around and even behind you. If we were ever able to build spaceships that dogfight in space you can bet your bottom dollar that cockpits would not be designed like a Cobra, Eagle, Viper etc. where you were basically blind to what's around you in combat. That would be suicide unless you had video screens in you cockpit looking in all directions. Third person view is the equalizer for quick situational awareness in a game which can't simulate what you would HAVE in real life.

For most people the only reason they want 3rd person view is to admire their ship, and who wouldn't while playing in this beautiful game.

I get the impression that the people who say it will break immersion don't really know what it means. Immersion should mean that it's more life like and being able to see all around you in combat is something REAL combat pilots are able to do. No you can't look in 3rd person in real life, but like I said that is all a computer game can do to make up for peripheral vision loss and why it is included in ALL HARDCORE SIMS. TracIR is the next best thing to helping with immersion in a flying sim because it allows you to look around in a realistic fashion without compromising yourself in a dangerous 3rd person view. Unfortunately in this game due to the unrealistic design of the combat craft, even tracIR is limited compared to how you can look around in a hardcore sim. Hence the need for 3rd person perspective.

 

[Deyn]

Hi Soulstain, couldn't have worded it better. The part with the 'mature' conversation seems the biggest issue on this forum, unlike over at Eagle Dynamics...
Most people seem to oppose the arguments just to 'win the argument', no discussion, no brains, no civil behaviur involved.

 

[LarsBot]

Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco To add a little developer clarification:

We are looking at external camera views, with the following caveats:

* They are contextualised as camera/drone systems
* They are not designed to be used as alternate flight views
* Their primary function is to allow "beauty shots"
* They may have occasional tertiary game play functions (such as seeing how close you are to something)

No ETA at the moment though.


When? Why does this take so long to just give an ETA or even confirm its being done and how - a little light at the end of the tunnel please!?

 

[Deyn]

How about we just remove the silly multiplayer mode, make Elite Dangerous an proper game with content instead costly server sucking up manpower and have external views? I would buy an paintshop or more than one then!
If the problem is the pvp thing just remove it!
Because right now it is me an cockpit, the ship i sit in i see on a few pictures, partly, obscured by menues.
That is kinda like the first verion where you had to fill in the polygons with your fantasy.... Oh wait... we had left right and back view then, so even more.. we could even stick lasers there too!
Tailturrets!!!!!

Really if the only problem with 3rd person and rear view mirror (and bottom for landing) is the pvp thing remove it, i do not need it at all, the only time i played in multi was by accident.

For me the perfect solution! Only Frontiers Vision(tm) of a crappy MMO with no coop, no working groups or comms stands in the way...
I play solo most of the time, if not I'm in the mobius group and saw, as in chatted, to a Player just once!!!
Open mode I last played at the beginning of beta 1! As soon as there was group and solo I left the pvp lunatics to their own devices, for good.

Now the same lunatics seem to oppose every attempt to make the game enjoyable for me in Solo mode as well... griefers in forums, that's a new one!

 

[Deyn]

Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco To add a little developer clarification:

We are looking at external camera views, with the following caveats:

* They are contextualised as camera/drone systems
* They are not designed to be used as alternate flight views
* Their primary function is to allow "beauty shots"
* They may have occasional tertiary game play functions (such as seeing how close you are to something)

No ETA at the moment though.


When? Why does this take so long to just give an ETA or even confirm its being done and how - a little light at the end of the tunnel please!?

Maybe a simple keybind for the existing external cam and fly-bys the devs use, would make everybody happy!

 

[almostpilot]

Phier, no offence. I would like to have a mature conversation about this, so let's talk apples to apples.
What simulation games do you regularly play? Falcon 4.0, DCS for example. I just want to make sure you're not comparing to games like war thunder or world of warplanes etc. Those are obviously not sims.

EVERY hard core sim on the market has 3rd person views. Nobody who wants to survive in a simulated dogfight in a HARD CORE sim would EVER use 3rd person while in a dogfight. You will die, die, die. Yes it can be quickly used for situational awareness because in a computer game we can not simulate peripheral vision which we obviously have in real life. TracIR is the closest we can come to simulating this. It is not a cheat, it does not break immersion, it adds to immersion and removes the FAKE situation of not being able to see around you. In a real cockpit you are in a bubble and you can look all around and even behind you. If we were ever able to build spaceships that dogfight in space you can bet your bottom dollar that cockpits would not be designed like a Cobra, Eagle, Viper etc. where you were basically blind to what's around you in combat. That would be suicide unless you had video screens in you cockpit looking in all directions. Third person view is the equalizer for quick situational awareness in a game which can't simulate what you would HAVE in real life.

For most people the only reason they want 3rd person view is to admire their ship, and who wouldn't while playing in this beautiful game.

I get the impression that the people who say it will break immersion don't really know what it means. Immersion should mean that it's more life like and being able to see all around you in combat is something REAL combat pilots are able to do. No you can't look in 3rd person in real life, but like I said that is all a computer game can do to make up for peripheral vision loss and why it is included in ALL HARDCORE SIMS. TracIR is the next best thing to helping with immersion in a flying sim because it allows you to look around in a realistic fashion without compromising yourself in a dangerous 3rd person view. Unfortunately in this game due to the unrealistic design of the combat craft, even tracIR is limited compared to how you can look around in a hardcore sim. Hence the need for 3rd person perspective.

well said!

 

[LarsBot]

My question to you all is - would you buy Elite if it has a external view from the beginning or not?

Absolutely NOT - but I was fooled by all the advertising on the web site and you tube showing awesome external views and fly bys, the first thing I did in the game was to find the external view key - what a surprise there is none! Like I want to fly around in a standard "cockpit" for the next 5 years of this game play. Ti be honest I've never been so disappointed in a game esp because it appears I was deceived by the advertising.

 

[anikaiful]

... deceived by the advertising.

One reason to never trust advertising, be it about games, food, movies, or summer vacations.

 

[LarsBot]

No your not a pilot just as your not a disembodied spirit - your playing a game.

 

[LarsBot]

One reason to never trust advertising, be it about games, food, movies, or summer vacations.

Yeah maybe, but its also unlawful at least here in North America, to your point, It really is awful that we need laws to keep people honest about selling their own products.

 

[Cowski]

Here's my take on why we should have an external view (non-combat).

I just flew into the LTT 15574 system. Went to Haxel Port. WOW!! I was very much impressed with the way this space port looked! I'd LOVE to get a full on screenshot of it and use it as a wallpaper for my monitors at work. What I was actually hoping for is to get a lot of screenshots of the game and allow my computer at work to rotate through them. Show off the graphics of this game that I'm sure the art department for Frontier would appreciate.

But sadly I cannot get any good shots of the spacestations or even my ship. No external views. :-(

I really hope they implement this into the game in a future version. Not to allow it is going against all that is holy for flight sims. The graphics are awesome and to get screenshots of ships side by side or with a red sun as a background would be really pretty cool!!

As for "immersion" If you are playing solo, like many of us are, how's that going to hurt other players?? Maybe only give the external view capability to players in the solo aspect of the game?? Problem solved.


*** EDIT *** In addition to what I said above. I think the word "immersion" is tossed around way too much. Larsbot a couple of messages up said it very well...."...your playing a game." If I wanted immersion I'd go outside into the real world. Video game "immersion" isn't here yet.