External View [A definitive discussion]

[TheEponymousBob]

Yes - it has become pointless - the singleplayer is too trivial as it stands and multiplayer has been spoiled by this. Of course I could just not use it, but I doubt playing a game where I'm the only one not abusing the hell out of a dev-introduced wallhack is going to be a lot of fun.

It renders every aspect of cockpit design entirely pointless - want to look through your cockpits floor? Enable X-ray vision for 100 ms. Doesn't matter if you can't control your ship during those 100 ms. Unless there's a delay of at least 30 seconds it is going to be exploited ad nauseam.

Given the fact that there's a popup dialog you need to manually clear when it's used, I hardly think anyone's going to use it mid-combat. It is perfectly clear that FD are making this thing to confer no combat advantage, so if it gets exploited, they'll tweak or remove it.

 

[TheEponymousBob]

Simple scenario: Silent running - as it stands now, as long as you're cold enough and knowing the line of sight of the target CMDRs ship type, you can safely assume he can't notice you when approaching from a certain array of angles.

A CMDR using the debug camera for a quick peak every now and then does gain an advantage in situational awareness compared to one not using it.

A CMDR—even one in silent running—close enough to an enemy that peaking around would offer anything interesting to see is either dead or needs to be in constant control of his/her ship.

You are straining to find something to dislike about this—before it's even been implemented in the release build—and describing it as an "arcade" feature (name an arcade game with this sort of non-combat sightseeing feature) is so wrong it's laughable.

 

[RingoD123]

Given the fact that there's a popup dialog when it's used, I hardly think anyone's going to use it mid-combat. It is perfectly clear that FD are making this thing to confer no combat advantage, so if it gets exploited, they'll tweak or remove it.

do you switch between your targets subsystems ever?
do you switch between targeted ships when in battle zones?
I really doubt taking a split second to click "ok" is going to get anybody killed in combat.
Plus now we'll actually have some kind of external view, you can expect it to be added to the ever growing list of easily available hacks, so people will be able to fly "as usual" but permanently in the third person camera.

 

[zeep]

Your ship can be moving, but you cannot control your ship while in the debug view.

Michael

And what about being able to quickly switch it on/off when chased to quickly see the position of your chasers?
What about hiding behind an asteroid and being able to see another ship coming before he sees you?

I really hope FD makes this cheat-proof.

 

[almostpilot]

I really hope that the FD extend this outside view in other ways.

But it's a good start

 

[Distance]

Given the fact that there's a popup dialog you need to manually clear when it's used, I hardly think anyone's going to use it mid-combat. It is perfectly clear that FD are making this thing to confer no combat advantage, so if it gets exploited, they'll tweak or remove it.

And what about being able to quickly switch it on/off when chased to quickly see the position of your chasers?
What about hiding behind an asteroid and being able to see another ship coming before he sees you?

I really hope FD makes this cheat-proof.

I wish people would read the thread or atleast the last couple of pages before commenting.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

Given the fact that there's a popup dialog you need to manually clear when it's used, I hardly think anyone's going to use it mid-combat. It is perfectly clear that FD are making this thing to confer no combat advantage, so if it gets exploited, they'll tweak or remove it.

Hitting ok isn't really taking anyone ages - besides I'm quite certain it could easily be worked around with a script that automatically confirms when activating the external camera, either in controller software or VA.

A CMDR—even one in silent running—close enough to an enemy that peaking around would offer anything interesting to see is either dead or needs to be in constant control of his/her ship.

You are straining to find something to dislike about this—before it's even been implemented in the release build—and describing it as an "arcade" feature (name an arcade game with this sort of non-combat sightseeing feature) is so wrong it's laughable.

Not sure if we're playing the same game, but in the ED I play, my eyesight exceeds max sensor range by far when it comes to spotting ships.

I don't need to strain finding anything to dislike about it, I genuinely dislike it for all the reasons I've mentioned earlier in this thread twice a couple of months back.

The point is that it's not a non combat Feature. What makes you think that? Sure - I can't change my ships direction and I can't shoot whilst bypassing my cockpits view restrictions - doesn't really matter if it was possible - if someone is abusing it to look around in combat, chances are he is looking for something, so there's nothing in their gunsights either way - quick 360° swoop, spot something and back to cockpit view to head there.

 

[NeoRacer]

I can already do that with my Oculus lool

if someone is abusing it to look around in combat, chances are he is looking for something, so there's nothing in their gunsights either way - quick 360° swoop, spot something and back to cockpit view to head there.

 

[Coyote]

I assume pretty much every sim so far is totally unplayable to you because it has external camera views? Brace yourself - there are even "target cameras". And guess what: nobody gives a hoot.

 

[Vasea Azure]

I did not know that Elite is PVP centered arena comm... game.
Everything can be abuse by players. Debug camera is not third person view - your ship WILL NOT move when you are in debug camera.
From what we know it will be useless for combat.

I get it - some people might find some magical way to make it to so called "advantage" for PVP stuff.
But what about many MANY others that wants beauty shots? What about explorers?

Debug camera is a partial solution before cam drones are implemented.

Stop dramatizing it! Since when we are looking for pvp advantages - is there some sort of PVP scoreboard, or is Elite PVP a E-Sport now?
Stop it.

 

[NeilF]

if someone is abusing it to look around in combat, chances are he is looking for something, so there's nothing in their gunsights either way - quick 360° swoop, spot something and back to cockpit view to head there.

What will be more effective?

1) Flicking to the debug camera. Flying along in an uncontrollable straight line. Panning around looking to spot something.

2) Turning flight assist off, panning around and using head look to spot something, while still in full control of your ship, and having a scanner.

I seriously doubt, in the minority of cases where you'd even want to do this, (1) will offer any real advantage over (2).

But how about we wait for a few days and simply see what the feature is, before trying to second guess it, write it off, or declare we're done with the game, before even seeing it in the flesh.

 

[Nomadski]

I would be more than happy to completely remove multiplayer, and indeed online completely, to be able to get a proper, decent 3rd person camera, like in every flying game, ever.

As far as I'm concerned, all secessions are made in gaming, to help balance multiplayer - even though in this case its just PvPers crying needlessly over something which offers ZERO benefit tactically.

Seeing as none of the above is going to change, I'm reasonably happy with what we have been given - it won't offer the video making potential of a true unnerfed 3rd person camera, but it's a damn sight better than what we had before.

And I'm used to nerfed mechanics in my games so the pew addicts can shoot each other. I wish we lived in a different gaming environment.

 

[Crystles]

Ya know, I've had a wildly better idea that would in all likelihood be infinitely more difficult to implement, is a way to capture entire scene's to be reviewed in an out of game viewer. Essentially recording everything in your immediate area and outputting that to a file that could be accessed and played, where you could view everything that happened from different angles and perspectives.

Would it take an immense amount of disk space? Yes probably. Would it be extrodinarily difficult to implement? Knowing nothing on the subject I'd think so. Would you be able to capture and shoot some BAD ASS videos and even make a movie with it? Hell yeah you would!

I've always wanted a game to do this in some form. It could result in some talented users generating some genuinely amazing content. Imagine being able to document a factional skirmish between multiple ships, and turning it into an awesome cinematic combat video. Result? Zero complaints from worriers about gaining an in game advantage (by the time you could use/review it, it'd be tactically worthless).

Alas, just a day dream by all rights. Unless it would be considerably easier to implement than I believe it would be, I'd never expect Fdev's to drop the time/resources needed to create something like this when there's so much more to do that would yield far greater benefits.

 

[Surly_Badger]

Ya know, I've had a wildly better idea that would in all likelihood be infinitely more difficult to implement, is a way to capture entire scene's to be reviewed in an out of game viewer. Essentially recording everything in your immediate area and outputting that to a file that could be accessed and played, where you could view everything that happened from different angles and perspectives.

There was an old playstation game - stunt driver - that let you do a driveby, then save it and remix the camera angles and cuts. It was pretty cool, but to make that sort of thing work you have to store a lot of state.

If you want in-game movies get a graphic card that supports shadowplay.

 

[Nomadski]

Ya know, I've had a wildly better idea that would in all likelihood be infinitely more difficult to implement, is a way to capture entire scene's to be reviewed in an out of game viewer. Essentially recording everything in your immediate area and outputting that to a file that could be accessed and played, where you could view everything that happened from different angles and perspectives.

Would it take an immense amount of disk space? Yes probably. Would it be extrodinarily difficult to implement? Knowing nothing on the subject I'd think so. Would you be able to capture and shoot some BAD ASS videos and even make a movie with it? Hell yeah you would!

I've always wanted a game to do this in some form. It could result in some talented users generating some genuinely amazing content. Imagine being able to document a factional skirmish between multiple ships, and turning it into an awesome cinematic combat video. Result? Zero complaints from worriers about gaining an in game advantage (by the time you could use/review it, it'd be tactically worthless).

Alas, just a day dream by all rights. Unless it would be considerably easier to implement than I believe it would be, I'd never expect Fdev's to drop the time/resources needed to create something like this when there's so much more to do that would yield far greater benefits.

Like Driver had, in 1999? EDIT: Ninja'd

Shadowplay records none editable angles, and only what the gamer is seeing while playing, irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[almostpilot]

I would be more than happy to completely remove multiplayer, and indeed online completely, to be able to get a proper, decent 3rd person camera, like in every flying game, ever.

Amen to that!

 

[Vasea Azure]

Amen to that!

Same, pvp and online was a fun extra for me when I backed the game. But now we dont have a offline Elite anymore.

 

[Ketzerfreund]

Take a look at Rise of Flight

There was an old playstation game - stunt driver - that let you do a driveby, then save it and remix the camera angles and cuts. It was pretty cool, but to make that sort of thing work you have to store a lot of state.

If you want in-game movies get a graphic card that supports shadowplay.

You might want to try out the free-to-play client of Rise Of Flight some time. It's a WW1 flight sim that offers a really good record-and-replay function. You can hit a key for starting/stopping recording any time during flight and view the recording afterwards using all kinds of camera positions and angles. And since the states you mention to be recorded consist of merely a bunch of coordinates and vectors, it's by far not as taxing on your machine as many seem to think it would be. I know, I'm using it myself very often when going on a flight, because it helps analyse your maneuvering to "git gud".

Being as sophisticated as it is, Rise of Flight's record/replay function leads to a huge number of player-made trailers on Youtube which are of high quality very often. The developers make ample use of that fact by occassionally organising trailer contests for some item from their store.

ED, as many sims and sim-likes nowadays, relies on consumer's word-of-mouth promotion for a large part, and ED especially, since FD aren't exactly hyperactive in their marketing, with all due respect. Good screenshots are an important aspect of that, and I'm afraid the fact that FD has treated the matter of external views so lackadaisically may have hurt sales to a certain extent. But we're getting that now, so we'll be fine in that regard.
A replay mechanic, however, would push sales more noticeably than mere screenshots ever could - at no further cost to FD beyond the initial implementation. Rise of Flight is a testament to that. It's a proper WW1 flight sim: It's in the niche of a niche, and yet it thrives!

...in all likelihood be infinitely more difficult to implement

Actually no, not really.


[Edit:] Oh yeah, here's a link to the download of Rise of Flight's f2p client for your convenience. Seriously, try it out for yourself. You too, FD!

 

[TheEponymousBob]

do you switch between your targets subsystems ever?
do you switch between targeted ships when in battle zones?

Yes, and none of those things require me to lose my current view, dismiss a box obscuring my new view, take time to orient my new view (which I'm guessing will be speed-limited and won't be automatically defaulted to where you want to look) then return to my ship.

I really doubt taking a split second to click "ok" is going to get anybody killed in combat.

Yeah, FD can easily make this way longer than a "split second".

Plus now we'll actually have some kind of external view, you can expect it to be added to the ever growing list of easily available hacks, so people will be able to fly "as usual" but permanently in the third person camera.

Then let's fix the problem—the hacking—rather than block all new features just in case they're hacked.

Look. The feature goes into beta on Tuesday. We can either a) spit the dummy, or b) use the beta period to determine whether the new camera, which FD have made painfully clear they do not want to have conferring gameplay benefits, to find out whether it can be exploited and request changes to prevent this. I'm a b) man, personally.

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I wish people would read the thread or atleast the last couple of pages before commenting.

I did. The quoted post was not relevant, since we already know FD are aiming to make it cheat-proof.

 

[TheEponymousBob]

Hitting ok isn't really taking anyone ages - besides I'm quite certain it could easily be worked around with a script that automatically confirms when activating the external camera, either in controller software or VA.

See my later post.

I don't need to strain finding anything to dislike about it, I genuinely dislike it for all the reasons I've mentioned earlier in this thread twice a couple of months back.

Problem is, none of those reasons are (in my opinion) even vaguely valid. They are massive stretches.

The point is that it's not a non combat Feature. What makes you think that?

The fact that FD, who can tweak the feature as much as they like, have explicitly said that they want it to be a non-combat feature. Several times. If it's exploited, it can be fixed. If people keep their heads on, such fixes (if any are required) could even be applied before the feature goes live. Flouncing is less likely to achieve the same happy outcome.

Sure - I can't change my ships direction and I can't shoot whilst bypassing my cockpits view restrictions - doesn't really matter if it was possible - if someone is abusing it to look around in combat, chances are he is looking for something, so there's nothing in their gunsights either way - quick 360° swoop, spot something and back to cockpit view to head there.

What makes you think that'll be any quicker than just turning? FD can easily restrict the turning speed to make it utterly useless in combat (or even more useless than as currently described—frankly I think none of the scenarios you've described come anywhere near holding water).