External View [A definitive discussion]
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Go and try what the video shows in the alpha... And then imagine doing it while someone can see you coming with an external view. Stalking a player who has no idea you are there is quite good practice and even fun.
The OP makes scanner blanking "optional", but there is no need for FD to do the work required with implementing such a heavy weight solution - they can just make the game 1st person only as it is.
I've mentioned several times, a 3rd person view I can accept is :
No control of ship from outside, no HUD, ship is stationary and the shields are down. It takes 10 secs or so to transition. This is more like an EVA rather than external camera, but I'd also like the external camera to be non-controllable to player as well however that would make the view so useless as to make it not worthwhile implementing it.
Toad.
Can you explain how you think it renders them obsolete? Give an example/scenario maybe?
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1st off I haven't played yet but I have seen a lot of videos. 1 of the tactics encouraged in this game is running cold so you do not show up on scanners, you sneak up on your target from behind (or where ever the blind spot is on the ship) and then take by surprise.
All of that is lost if people can swap and switch to an outside view.
Now, on the other hand I do love eye candy and loo,king at my ship outside and I will be sad to lose that, in the same way accelerated time is a big loss of awesome shots.
Basically pvp multiplayer has a lot to answer for.
I totally see where u guys are coming from, I just see no outside view as the lesser of 2 evils.
There are all sorts of reasons how you can explain why in the future an outside view makes sense, but if you take it to the extreme in over 1000 years time people won't be dogfighting anyway so you could argue the whole notion is nonsense........ it is fun though
I don't want to feel forced to use an outside view but if others can then I will have to, therefore the only 2 options is see is either
1) Bork the view by having massive cool down time and no ship and weapon control and shields down
2) allow it but in the offline single player only, that way you can do what ever you want and it won't affect the online game.
Me myself I would say take both 1 and 2. Make it an in game mechanic when online, a drone which you remote control but you have to shut down ship systems to run it. You could then allow missions using it .prospecting in small caves on asteroids, spy missions and the like.
Offline do what the heck u want
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I linked a vid showing a scenario. I suggest you play the alpha and consider how an unrestricted 3rd person view will affect the game play.
If you don't have the alpha, I'd suggest you wait until you play the game before judging whether a 3rd person view is necessary.
Toad.
Yet another obligatory "Make it a feature of the groups system" post.
I don't want to feel forced to use an outside view but if others can then I will have to, therefore the only 2 options is see is either
1) Bork the view by having massive cool down time and no ship and weapon control and shields down
2) allow it but in the offline single player only, that way you can do what ever you want and it won't affect the online game.
Offline do what the heck u want
Pretty much my feelings on this too. Nearly every multiplayer game I've played that offers a 3rd person view I've invariably always felt the need to play it in 3rd person view too just to compete.
I would add though that borking the view by having massive cool down time (or any other pseudo-disadvantage you can throw in) won't work because I've seen how teamplayers use 3rd person view in other games - and it may well be how it'll become to be exploited in FD too. Namely one will sacrifice his tactical advantages if he can stay in 3rd person view and reel off a ton of visual info to a whole host of teammates via skype etc.
Don't dismiss player ingenuity at exploiting a nerfed feature. FD may well remove all tactical info and perceived advantage 3rd person offers the individual pilot using it, but they have to take into consideration the info he can utilise and can relay to teammates.
Again you're looking at this from a single pilots perspective and not taking into consideration how two pilots working together will use the system. One in "vulnerable" 3rd person view, the other not. One relaying info to his teammate who is gaining an extended visual advantage he wouldn't normally have yet still being in 1st person mode, armed, and ready for his spotter to tell him where the next target is hiding.
Now granted two pilots both in 1st person mode can work together in a similar way - one being the eyes for the other - but the advantage is more natural and restrictive.
Has anyone but me at all considered the possibility of making it a feature of the groups system? It's not a problem if everyone in the instance agreed beforehand that it was okay.
Its been mentioned plenty of times. There's surely no problem at all with there being a tick box a host can check when setting up his or her private group; allow 3rd person view yes/no? And everyone who is invited is made aware of it.
Have it in solo online mode too - I see no issues there. The problem is those who want 3rd person aren't willing to compromise it seems.
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I want 3rd person. I'd be very happy for a proper freeform "anything goes" 3rd person camera to be available only in solo online (and offline) mode. I'll compromise
In fact I made this very suggestion (have it only in solo modes) some time ago in one of the numerous threads on this topic. I'd say it's actually the "no no no not ever under any circumstances" anti-3rd-person crusaders who seem unwilling to compromise. IMHO.Since all I want the camera for is to look at my gorgeous ship against pretty nebulae backdrops, and gaze in awe at the fabulous architecture of spaceports, and so forth, being in solo mode is fine. I wouldn't want UberNoobKilla1 messing up my screenshots anyway
I'm sure most of us do, but most of us are going about the wrong way.
Since all I want the camera for is to look at my gorgeous ship against pretty nebulae backdrops, and gaze in awe at the fabulous architecture of spaceports, and so forth, being in solo mode is fine. I wouldn't want UberNoobKilla1 messing up my screenshots anyway
Oh you would say that wouldn't you Barns. You just want to see that pretty station or nebula in all your innocence and honesty.
But I know the truth Barns. Your comments may fool some, but they don't fool me. I know your plans of universal domination and the key to that darkness is the ability to have an external view.
You, and others in this axis of evil, may want us to think your out there alone, light years from another human player, exploring, mining or doing some trade run, but I know Barns - its all a diversion in preparation for the inevitable external view passive weapon of mass destruction attack!
Our fleet of OR, HT, and MM army which stand before you now will not allow such an unfair combat advantage to be ever realised. When the day finally comes when ED is released, we will all gather together onboard a capital ship and under the banner of Mission Accomplished, we can finally claim victory!
... hey Toadz, when that day does come, can you like take a group screenshot of us from like the top of your canopy, then like photoshop the cockpit frames out ... thx.
Fair point.. So your concern is you're running cold and approaching another ship, that other ship is in external view and sees you?
Couple of things here:-
1) You're suggesting they're in external view looking? Why would they be? Surely they wouldn't be constantly in external view solely for this reason?
2) In external view, the suggestion is you won't have any hud, so let's not forget the player is running under the penalty of not even being aware of ships anywhere nearby. That's a big penalty!
3) There is then the suggested penalty of when exiting external view of a 4-5 second cut scene (the droid docking?) where they have no control/decent view.
Although I can fully understand your concern over this matter, I can't help but think the negatives of running in external view mean people would only be using it for the very purpose it's designed for - view eye candy better - rather than using it to get a tactical advantage?
And if you're still concerned by this matter, the whole issue can be solved simply by "Limitation: Optional (3)" (see OP) although I don't think it's necessary personally.
I did provide a couple of examples and plenty of other valid arguments have been put forward and are not included in the OP. Many of these valid arguments that have been put forward are not entirely addressed by the 'pro 3rd person' counters, in fact, I would go as far as to say that some of the 'against' points, if they are unable to be countered, are just ignored.
The counter of 'just because we can do x, y or z in 3rd person view but why would we?' is invalid. The reason for this is that in virtually every MMO and the like that I have played, if there is an exploitable area of the gameplay, or in the code then it will be used and exploited. I'm not sure how many people here the 'win at all costs' mentality applies to but you are seriously kidding yourself if you don't think that at least a small percentage of E: D players will have this mentality.
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Seems legit, regarding the external view.
But in my car I have a rear view mirror, or a reversing camera. So being able to look around with different views should not be an issue. Is it? that would be silly to debate.
This is like the surfers woe, It's cool to go surfing, but very rare that you get on camera. You catch a good ride, but never have that in a picture, unless you bring a photographer who waits and watches on the beach.
So that's it, bring a friend with a camera your record your ship. There is no more to debate why is this thread still open?
That's exactly what I'm seeing too.
+1. Nothing I've seen proposed even remotely comes close to avoiding the 3rd person pitfalls other games suffer from. Until then I'll continue to vote against this proposal if its to be included in the MP gameworld. If I want to see my ship against some awe-inspiring backdrop I'll do as KickahasTier suggested and have a friend take a snapshot. Or better still encourage FD to allow the mode in solo play or implement the replay editor.
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Please list them?
The common two we see over and over are the "hiding behind the asteroid" scenario, and the "ruins running cold scenario". As far as I'm concerned these two have been quite nicely addressed. Are there others we need to worry about?
I don't need to list them Neil they are in plain sight a couple of pages back in this thread from myself and littered throughout the thread by others. And, as in my previous post I don't think it has been 'addressed'. Maybe, it has been addressed to your satisfaction - as a pro 3rd perosn advocate, but to those of us that are against it the issues have at best only been partially addressed and at worst not addressed at all.
EDIT :- sorry Neil, came accross as a bit 'off' with you in my first line there, not intentional I assure you!
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Ok fair enough, hiding ships in 3rd person not on scanner isn't optional. Or maybe...
How about just making the external view move slow enough? The only real advantage compared to switching flight assist off and turning your ship around would be turning speed and FOV. Both needs to be the same for the external view as for the ship. You could argue that you can see a ship turning and react, but you also pick up the radio transmission from the external view, so equal. In fact regularly turning around with FA off will be the required playstyle in a contested system now. Boost, fa off, turn 360, boost, turn 360... that's the path of least resistance :S
I'd suggest another thing: Stealthing is impossible if you don't have a ship that is painted pitch black. It also gives others a tell tale sight you are a stealthy killer and be weary.
Else you transmit electromagnetic radiation in the visible spectrum and other ship's scanners will pick it up. That way, even in first person with looking straight at you a stealthed player will be impossible to spot (black on black space except if you cross a star and wink it out). Scanners are more powerful to the front though afaik.
Camera view moves around ship at the same rate of ship turn rate
Camera makes scanners pick up camera activity
You can only stealth if your ship is painted pitch black ()
About the video (a bit off tipic) maybe stealth should be nerfed? Looked quite OP. PVP will be rare and unfair enough without the necessity to give gankers an additional boost. In fact an external view might be an excellent way to nerf stealthing against players only, but not against NPCs.
Please don't spam. It's called argumentum ad nauseam and it's derailing the discussion. I've replied to your idea a bit up. I guess it is a compromise for some, but not for people who want to play online.
You posted about the FOV issue. I'd agree with that, the FOV should never be larger than the fov from your ships cockpit. In fact it should be smaller, if only because fish eye views don't look as nice as photo's. The normal game fov is horrible for good screenshots. A 35mm camera with 50 mm lens for example has a 40 degree horizontal FOV.
What other arguments where there? Could you link any please? There are a lot of counter arguments here and quite a few simply don't take into account the OP proposal.
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