I understand your intent, and NeilF's, but sadly, you know MMO players mate, there will always be a percentage that will exploit anything they can to even gain a slight advantage. And sometimes, in a close encounter, a small advantage can be decisive.
External View [A definitive discussion]
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I understand your intent, and NeilF's, but sadly, you know MMO players mate, there will always be a percentage that will exploit anything they can to even gain a slight advantage. And sometimes, in a close encounter, a small advantage can be decisive.
a) A ship you have already seen is a potential target if you have 3rd person POV and increased FOV
b) The solo play one, no, there is no counter to that, it is 100% acceptable.
I don't follow a) above. Either you're already in contact with the ship and thus any element of surprise is lost and all the "5s to get back into cockpit mode and be able to fly / target / shoot" limitations come into play - so you'd definitely be better off sticking with cockpit view - or you haven't seen the ship and it won't be seen in 3rd person. I don't see how you can possibly gain any advantage in either situation.
Edit : oh hang on, you can tell I'm a total carebear, are you meaning from the POV of a pirate using 3rd person to scope out the movements of potential prey? Hmm have to ponder it, I dunno, maybe.
Okay, for a), let me try to explain it better in another scenario.
I am in a system prospecting for good asteroids to mine, another ship is near, doing the same, and then you join us and stop at a nearby asteroid appearing to be doing this also. little do I know you are a pirate.
You have seen my ship, been within scanner range and you appear to be mining, prospecting or taking in the sights to me. I carry on prospecting, the next asteroid to you is rich in a mineral. I start mining said mineral. You have done nothing to suggest you are hostile to me, in fact, I can see from your stationary position and the fact, (as suggested in the OP of this thread), that you are running 'hot' that you are probably just getting some nice screenshots of yourself in this pretty asteroid field.
I carry on mining, you have a FOV advantage over me, you can see my now very heavy freighter, and you know I must be nearly full to capacity or you can tell I am preparing to disengage the asteroid now full of precious minerals.
This is your moment, you can take 5 seconds to get back in your ship, charge your systems, (you still appear no threat to me, as far as I know you have your screenshots and are preparing to leave), You then cruise up behind me, waste my shields, (and possibly hull), and you have yourself a nice little bounty of valuable resources.
EDIT :- I am well awre this could happen anyway, with a pirate just 'waiting' for me, but I could really do without someone using/having an advantage that could potentially make it easier/more likely such as increased FOV
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Not having ships on your scanner that you can see with your bare eye and that one of the hundred of cheap 3 credit camera plastered all over the hull of your space ship would pick up even better...
... it's not that it would be unrealistic - just that it would be so incredibly stupid to build a real space ship like that. A blind space ship. About as stupid as painting all your car windows except the front screen black and removing all side and rear view mirrors. And then driving in downtown traffic. It's unrealistic how stupid people would have to be to build a ship like that.
But accepting this mountain of unrealistic colossal stupidity of all the ship builders in the elite dangerous universe, an external view created by a composite by those hull cameras would only show what the scanner shows. It's a synthetic 3D image fed live by the ships sensors. So not unrealistic at all.
PS: @Theodrid Then lets agree on no FOV advantage?
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I understand your example, thanks. I still think it'd be a very marginal advantage under very specific circumstances, if any. Plus, given the choice, personally, I'd rather have a 3rd person camera I can use to take pretty shots and accept the very occasional death due to others (ab)using it, than lose the camera entirely. Back to the "balance vs options" thing I guess.
Interesting to see how far FD will go in their pursuit of "pure PvP balance" vs "fun game for all even if you're not competitive".
I'm sure that those who are 'for' 3rd person would take the occasional hit if it meant it were implemented. Those of us 'against' it would probably not. And I agree 100% that it may well only mean a very small advantage, but that advantage could well be the difference between me being able to engage my hyperdrive and get away with my minerals or the pirate nailing me and stealing them
thing is, i play on a 3840x2048 screen, with 6x the FOV of a single monitor.
I fully expect ED to scale its FOV and aspect ratio accordingly, just like all the other games i play (GTA, Arma etc.).
IF it doesn't then it's getting wiped off my PC, like all the other games that don't scale correctly. Otherwise it's like trying to see through a sniper scope, with tunnel vision and no depth of field. Flip that for a game of soldiers...
Hopefully it'll work fine straight outa the box, and i'm going to be able to see 6x more than you.
In which case, your options are to get a Rift, or else a 9-screen 'triple triplehead' system, if you want a level playing field.
I assure you, external views are the least of your worries....
I fully expect ED to scale its FOV and aspect ratio accordingly, just like all the other games i play (GTA, Arma etc.).
IF it doesn't then it's getting wiped off my PC, like all the other games that don't scale correctly. Otherwise it's like trying to see through a sniper scope, with tunnel vision and no depth of field. Flip that for a game of soldiers...
Hopefully it'll work fine straight outa the box, and i'm going to be able to see 6x more than you.
In which case, your options are to get a Rift, or else a 9-screen 'triple triplehead' system, if you want a level playing field.
I assure you, external views are the least of your worries....
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OK... I see what you're saying.
It's clear some people will possibly have minor advantages in some circumstance. An OC, or wider screen setup, a superior controller set with voice commands, a better ping. It's impossible to get an even footing across the board.
Personally I'm going to hate fighting against players with a OR because they will have a constant clear advantage all the time! So surely this will be far more of a game changer than some subtle/questionable extra 10-20 degrees of view (while having no scanner and being penalised with no control for X seconds etc)?
For me, if an external view can be offered that offers so many negatives for combat (just losing the scanner for me is a big one) it more than makes up for any obscure tactical advantage a few tens of degrees may offer. You could even consider that the rotation speed could be slow and mechanical (it is a droid moving) so rotating around your ship to go through 360 degrees could take 8-9 seconds.... etc... So you cannot even flick around looking in different directions anywhere near as fast an in the cockpit.
Trying to use it for anything other than sight-seeing is painful and leaves you at a disadvantage in many areas - There could be three pirates coming towards you, but because you can't see you're scanner you're completely unaware! And then if you come under attack you're control less (a sitting duck) for 4-5 seconds while your droid docks.
And if we even agree there is the risk of a small "advantage" in some areas - and God knows I'm still looking for them? - my take on it they will be so minor and rare they are worth it to obtain a view that will make the very most of the game and your time in it! And any such advantage is completely overshadowed by the advantages freely available to a small minority of players using devices such as the OR or a widescreen setup.
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I'm personally not in favour of this (simple) suggested limitation (if a ship is not on your scanner do not show it, or its weapons, while in external view), but it's clear it absolutely nails the problem you're raising.
So if it proves to be a necessity for fair game play/game mechanics, it's a very simple things to introduce, and it's no more far fetched that a maximum speed limit of just 250m/s (solely there for game play/game mechanics), or the fact if you get blown up you are immortal and teleport back into existence again (solely there for game play/game mechanics)
I'm personally not in favour of this (simple) suggested limitation (if a ship is not on your scanner do not show it, or its weapons, while in external view), but it's clear it absolutely nails the problem you're raising.
So if it proves to be a necessity for fair game play/game mechanics, it's a very simple things to introduce, and it's no more far fetched that a maximum speed limit of just 250m/s (solely there for game play/game mechanics), or the fact if you get blown up you are immortal and teleport back into existence again (solely there for game play/game mechanics)
Did I sense that we are almost reaching an agreement that there could, potentially be a small advantage in terms of FOV here Neil?
The problem with me and others being asked to provide examples of these potential advantages is that it is near impossible. Of course we can project and speculate, but at the end of the day, until the game is actually complete, in our hands and has a whole lot of people playing it speculating is all we are doing.
It is nigh on impossible to see every possible advantage an increased FOV may or may not have, in many, many MMO's I have played players have found exploits, loopholes and cheats that the developer could not have imagined in their wildest dreams. As someone said earlier in this thread, players are very resourceful in finding exploits. There may well be ingenious ways of exploiting even a 10 degree increased FOV that would never be apparent until it is used/thought of in an in-game environment.
I appreciate my example, though workable in my eyes, is not a great example, but lets be honest here Neil, just as those against can't possibly perceive every single bad scenario/exploit/loophole of increased POV then neither can you and those who are for 3rd person see these either.
I find it interesting that this thread has been going a while now and I haven't seen, (correct me if I'm wrong), any of the dev team/mods in here saying 'we are/are not going to do this in relation to 3rd person POV'. I think this speaks volumes to be honest.
We are all just speculating, speculating advantages, disadvantages, scenarios, and more, and we don't even know if FD's position of 'you are the pilot, in your cockpit' has changed or remains the same. I think I need to give myself a slap round the face, because I have kind of broken an unwritten rule of mine by getting so deeply involved in this speculation as opposed to keeping it at arms length. I am arguing against something that does not exits, and you are arguing for something that does not exist, which, frankly is bizarre on both our counts.
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Yes and no. I can understand your stand point, but we disagree on the outcome I think?
If we consider a pilot viewing a situation from the cockpit and then from external view, and not looking around in anyway etc. Then clearly the external view (*1) would have a larger view.
However, where we differ I think is how usable and what degree of an advantage this would be. eg: I suspect it would be quicker to look "around" in the cockpit than in a "nerfed" external view. ie: It could easily take 3-4 seconds to move the droid from a forward facing view to a rear facing one. Someone in a cockpit can do it in a fraction of that time.
In short, I see such a list of disadvantages piled on the suggested exterior view, it would trivialise/drown any supposed advantage.
Infact, it trivialises it to such a degree I'm still trying to actually understand a single suggested game play example being raised showing such a scenario. The most recent example is the pilot can look at some ships flying nearby and see a more tactical view of them? Huh? You're not seeing anything that cannot still easily be seen from the cockpit (quicker?) while still maintaining all your systems (eg: scanner). Think of an OC. They can take in almost an entire 180 degrees or more of vision instantly... An external camera cannot! + no scanner either!
The scenario seems to be a disadvantage to me for external view, and certainly no obvious advantage?
(*1) There's no reason an external view couldn't have a smaller/narrower FOV than from within the cockpit. But personally I think this would damage its purpose.
I simply don't think they want to commit. Why suggest something will be possible only to retract it later
Personally I think if there isn't a simple external view (nerfed totally to make it completely combat impractical) there will be a lot of frustrated end users. And why will they be frustrated? Quite simply because an option to best enjoy and sink themselves into certain moments of the game isn't available.
And as we can see - IMHO - people really are clutching at straws for a reason why external view would offer any real advantage to cockpit view.
But that said, of course we are not privy to all the game play yet. As you propose there may well be obvious moments/scenarios where an external view (even nerfed) completely screw it up.
My concern is the feature will not be included purely because of "elitist" reasoning. ie: It could be introduced with a simple list of behaviour and limitations and prove a useful feature to people for enjoying the game visually, but it won't be because it's deemed "not realistic" or like. Or it's seen first person EVA in a DLC will offer it.
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Yes it is all just speculation but this issue obviously evokes a strong sense or right and wrong on both sides.
Fact is a lot of people would feel something was missing without a 3rd person view and I don't feel dis-proving every use-case for 3rd person being something those against it don't like is really something that needs done to consider it a valuable addition to the game.
It's in essence valuable as a lot of people strongly desire it.
Whether it's wise is something, as you allude to, we can't know without having it. The same can be said for missing it as a feature.
All friendly speculation for now
I've not read the DDF archives on this but I get the impression it's not going to happen for release.
Fact is a lot of people would feel something was missing without a 3rd person view and I don't feel dis-proving every use-case for 3rd person being something those against it don't like is really something that needs done to consider it a valuable addition to the game.
It's in essence valuable as a lot of people strongly desire it.
Whether it's wise is something, as you allude to, we can't know without having it. The same can be said for missing it as a feature.
All friendly speculation for now
I've not read the DDF archives on this but I get the impression it's not going to happen for release.
That's a really good point.
It might damage it's purpose slightly but I'd rather have that than no 3rd person.
A mild advantage with a larger FOV in a given orientation than those in 1st person but never more of an advantage than anyone gets with more screens or an OcRift. Add on combat nerf inherent in the view and it's a significant disadvantage in PvP scenarios.
That's the point of my previous post though Neil, we cannot possibly foresee all the advantages/disadvantages etc.
For example do you know for certain that you will not be able to be in external view, be next to an object, and spin your camera so that in effect, you can see through an asteroid or large structure as you can see through walls and other things in many modern games when doing this?, (the camera clipping in effect), There is no 'camera collision' in these examples and being able to see through things offers an advantage.
This and many other things that you and I could maybe never think of are all valid concerns,
For example do you know for certain that you will not be able to be in external view, be next to an object, and spin your camera so that in effect, you can see through an asteroid or large structure as you can see through walls and other things in many modern games when doing this?, (the camera clipping in effect), There is no 'camera collision' in these examples and being able to see through things offers an advantage.
This and many other things that you and I could maybe never think of are all valid concerns,
I understand your point. But your example doesn't make sense? ie: If an external view (as proposed) is a drone circling around your ship point back at it. To look through an asteroid via some clipping issue it would have to be on the asteroid side of your ship looking back in the direction of where you can clearly see?
But you of course are correct, we are not yet aware of all the avenues of game play, and indeed an external view (at least as being proposed here) may well introduce a horrible game play issue.
However, as yet, I certainly can't think of one (at last not a clear/serious one), hence my continued support of this matter.
And I would repeat my sentiment - If ED comes out without an external view, and it appears a simple one could have been offered (nerfed heavily as maybe being suggested here) I think there will be a lot of frustrated people. IMHO at least...
Who wouldn't want to play around from time to time seeing their ship (& the ED universe) like this:-
...not many I suspect
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And if it comes out with an external view, or one is introduced down the line, and exploits are discovered and used it will also lead to a lot of frustrated people, it cuts both ways.
EDIT :- and yes pretty screenies are just that, pretty, but it depends on what baggage is attached.
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That's a bit of a Russel Teapot IMHO. If exploits are discovered, like in any "bug" in game play, they are solved.
eg: It transpires if you sit next to a space station and fire at other ships all AI ships miss you because their targeting is thrown off due to the station behind/next to you. An solution is found... AI ships aim is improved/tweaked. Or short range weapons put on stations.
If something arises in the external view, an existing nerf is increased or another added.
As it stands I fairly happy with the simple list offered in the OP gives a damn good compromise, giving no obvious exploit (worth worrying about). But I'm happy to be proved wrong!
I see it as a bit more involved than that. Consider all the videos we have of people just flying around watching Anacondas or space stations. What are they doing? They are enjoying looking at the ED universe. An external view is geared totally to allowing a player to do this better (if/when they wish to).
As per my previous example... you are flying into a space station and see a fleet of odd Anacondas leaving. You have two choices, try and fly around viewing the situation through a cockpit. Or simply flick to an external view (even carrying on flying by) to better see the scene/moment.
Consider why is it so many screen shots from FD are basically in external view mode? Consider how future purchasers of the game will feel when they can't view the universe in the way they've been "sold it".
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That's a bit of a Russel Teapot IMHO. If exploits are discovered, like in any "bug" in game play, they are solved.
eg: It transpires if you sit next to a space station and fire at other ships all AI ships miss you because their targeting is thrown off due to the station behind/next to you. An solution is found... AI ships aim is improved/tweaked. Or short range weapons put on stations.
If something arises in the external view, an existing nerf is increased or another added.
As it stands I fairly happy with the simple list offered in the OP gives a damn good compromise, giving no obvious exploit (worth worrying about). But I'm happy to be proved wrong!
No obvious exploit worth worrying about is subjective, just because it has not been discovered does not equate to the fact that it is a non-issue.
I am going to assume you have played other MMO's Neil, surely you are aware that exploits can and will be both found and used? Some of the exploits I have seen in games and read about on forums just make me go 'wow'. The people with the 'win at all costs' mentality mostly can be very inventive and creative in discovering and using exploits, hell, some of them are borderline genius and I almost have a small amount of admiration for their sheer inventiveness.
Neil, I will say this, if a member of the dev team could post in here and say 'we are implementing a perfect 3rd person POV system, we are 100% confident it cannot be exploited in any way' I would happily hold my hands up and say, 'okay, let's have it in game'. The trouble is, we both know that cannot be said or achieved - not even close.
You misinterpret my "Russel Teapot".
ie: Let's not add a feature, because the feature may give us a problem... even though we don't know what it is.
I think we are in total agreement. All I wish to achieve in this thread is to try and maybe dispell the repeated common arguments against external view that do have clear & simple solutions.
I absolutely put my hands in the air and don't pretend there is a definitive answer/solution to external view as we clearly don't know all the situations (problems) to solve
But in the meantime I feel if we can at least be rational about it, and stop the repeated unfair arguments against it, it can only be useful
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