External View [A definitive discussion]

[tooterfish]

Lol 50.xx % say yes tot external views. And only 3xx people actually expressed an opinion.

Yeah, nice work there Paxman.

Of the 300+ who voted, 300+ voted NO.

Of the 100+ who voted yes, 99% voted yes only on the condition that it couldn't be used in combat.

So about 3 people want unconditional 3rd person view*, the rest either don't want it at all, or only want it as long as it doesn't affect gameplay.

300 is actually a pretty good number for polls like this, most only get about 100 people voting.

*before you latch on to this number like a drowning man to a lifeline, look up the word hyperbole.

 

[NeoRacer]

What about people with Oculus Rift Vs those who don't. HUGE disadvantage. What about people with TrackIR vs those who don't? They will be fumbling with the hat controls to keep the enemy in view! UNFAIR. Where does it stop..

It's got nothing to do with realism.

By having an external view, you handicap everyone who doesn't use it. That means everyone has to use it.

That means it's you that's forcing your preferences on people... and for what? You're dramatically changing the dynamics of the game just so you can admire your own reflection. That's pretty selfish in my view.

I've personally got no objection if it can be done without compromising gameplay, but to suggest those opposed are being silly and selfish is rather blinkered, and stinks of pot and kettle.The only numbers we have are from polls like this, which clearly shows a very strong no.

You can say this poll might not be representative. But how representative are the numbers supporting the yes side... you know, those entirely non-existent ones?

 

[tooterfish]

What about people with Oculus Rift Vs those who don't. HUGE disadvantage. What about people with TrackIR vs those who don't? They will be fumbling with the hat controls to keep the enemy in view! UNFAIR. Where does it stop..

This is a complete red herring that has been addressed numerous times before.

Neither TrackIR or Rift add functionality that is unavailable to those that don't use them. Everyone can headlook, everyone. The playing field is as level as it can get with this kind of thing, unless we ban all peripherals entirely.

3rd person point of view allows you to see what you shouldn't, and the advantage is often entirely asymmetrical. I could hide behind an asteroid and use 3rd person to look over it while remaining hidden... EVEN TO SOMEONE ELSE USING 3rd person. It's exploitative, plain and simple, and completely ruins the dynamic of any game which allows it.

 

[Asp Explorer]

What about those who put time and money into kit so that they can enjoy and play the game in the manner they enjoy most?

How will they compete in the forum wars on advantage?

They won't even bother - they will be too busy playing and enjoying themselves to notice.

 

[NeoRacer]

No its not, imagine a fighter pilot who was unable to move his head in an F16 during a dogfight, versus someone who could and not only that, view it in 3d too? Are u kidding me. Its a huge advantage, even if they have a padlock system there will be milliseconds difference which means life or death in a fight. So yea, thats B.S. and you know it. Just pick the excuse that works best for your lost cause tho..

This is a complete red herring that has been addressed numerous times before.

Neither TrackIR or Rift add functionality that is unavailable to those that don't use them. Everyone can headlook, everyone. The playing field is as level as it can get with this kind of thing, unless we ban all peripherals entirely.

3rd person point of view allows you to see what you shouldn't, and the advantage is often entirely asymmetrical. I could hide behind an asteroid and use 3rd person to look over it while remaining hidden... EVEN TO SOMEONE ELSE USING 3rd person. It's exploitative, plain and simple, and completely ruins the dynamic of any game which allows it.

 

[Theodrid]

No its not, imagine a fighter pilot who was unable to move his head in an F16 during a dogfight, versus someone who could and not only that, view it in 3d too? Are u kidding me. Its a huge advantage, even if they have a padlock system there will be milliseconds difference which means life or death in a fight. So yea, thats B.S. and you know it. Just pick the excuse that works best for your lost cause tho..

Neo, the OR, HOTAS advantage thing has been addressed and debated in this thread many times.

I will say it again, for anyone who has none or some of those things, and let's suggest that a 3rdppov offers some little advantage, no matter how small.

Would you and those without all of those things want a possible say 4 advantages against them or 5 - as I've previously stated if there is to be a number of advantages 'against' me I would pick the smaller number every single time.

 

[jabokai]

Blah blah blah, the holy PvP must not be unequal, blah blah blah, PvP advantages, blah, protect the holiness of PvP PvP PvP

Seriously, where is the yawn smiley?

I never realised that people were that pettily competitive in computer games where PvP will be such a small factor... well, I did, but I figured they were a rather small minority and that entertainment was significantly more important.

 

[Theodrid]

Blah blah blah, the holy PvP must not be unequal, blah blah blah, PvP advantages, blah, protect the holiness of PvP PvP PvP

Seriously, where is the yawn smiley?

I never realised that people were that pettily competitive in computer games where PvP will be such a small factor... well, I did, but I figured they were a rather small minority and that entertainment was significantly more important.

Of course you are right Jabokai, but when old arguments are rehashed then old counters almost inevitably will be too, unless, of course they have been 'blown out of the water', which, in some opinions is clearly not the case.

 

[-o-]

... and across the seas, we see Smugallo produce his first ED fan video to the sounds of Carl Sagan, which triggers this response from FD ...

Fantastic video! will be sharing it!

The same positive response Neon Raven received when he released his video. Both videos feature an emulated external viewpoint, free from any cockpit interference.

Just based on its marketing potential, an external view is worth it. This kind of imagery delivers the WOW factor that can really increase the user base.

I just don't understand how on one hand, FD can state that an external view is not what they want for the game, yet on the other hand, continue to applaud the efforts of those who produce videos emulating (at great effort) external views.

 

[Frobitz]

I guess to understand the external view argument you have to understand the psychology

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa3uz2wCDQM

Spoiler

Massive tongue in cheek there guys. Relax. It'll be in the first release, or it won't and you'll be able to get out your beloved spaceship and wax it in a future update I'm sure

 

[jabokai]

Of course you are right Jabokai, but when old arguments are rehashed then old counters almost inevitably will be too, unless, of course they have been 'blown out of the water', which, in some opinions is clearly not the case.

I'm really curious though - are those that argue so heavily against it on competitive grounds genuinely that bothered? As someone who doesn't really like 3rd person (but would like it in the game for those that do) I couldn't care less if someone else was using it! PvP will not be the centre of the game - with repercussions for actions it just won't be the driving force it can be in other games... so it seems quite churlish to hold it up as some holy idol that must not be touched.

The only proper reason I've seen is that it's the dev's design decision. And while I disagree with that one, it doesn't really matter as it's simply a case of "take it or leave it, it's our game and we like it this way" and you cannot really argue with that!

 

[NeoRacer]

I know right. If the game is sufficiently complex it'd be impossible to be doing everything you need to do, plus moving the external view to see where people are at?! Whilst your doing that your gonna get your **** blasted. Its a minimal problem at best, I think they're just scared of getting owned by some 12 yo using a game pad. But yea, its gonna happen anyway

I'm really curious though - are those that argue so heavily against it on competitive grounds genuinely that bothered? As someone who doesn't really like 3rd person (but would like it in the game for those that do) I couldn't care less if someone else was using it! PvP will not be the centre of the game - with repercussions for actions it just won't be the driving force it can be in other games... so it seems quite churlish to hold it up as some holy idol that must not be touched.

The only proper reason I've seen is that it's the dev's design decision. And while I disagree with that one, it doesn't really matter as it's simply a case of "take it or leave it, it's our game and we like it this way" and you cannot really argue with that!

 

[Theodrid]

I'm really curious though - are those that argue so heavily against it on competitive grounds genuinely that bothered? As someone who doesn't really like 3rd person (but would like it in the game for those that do) I couldn't care less if someone else was using it! PvP will not be the centre of the game - with repercussions for actions it just won't be the driving force it can be in other games... so it seems quite churlish to hold it up as some holy idol that must not be touched.

The only proper reason I've seen is that it's the dev's design decision. And while I disagree with that one, it doesn't really matter as it's simply a case of "take it or leave it, it's our game and we like it this way" and you cannot really argue with that!

I can obviously only speak for myself, I am bothered enough to debate it, and I enjoy doing so, so I am obviously 'a bit' bothered. The point is though that many of us 'against' 3rdppov are not only to some degree 'bothered' regarding the PVP issues but have also argued and debated FD's view on this in addition to any other concerns.

For those of you that don't know, (I know this doesn't apply to you Jabokai), on page 62 of this very thread, in reply to this posted by Jack Booted Thug :-

You folks keep stating nonsense like this. The first person only view is premised on the idea that the player is in their body. It has nothing fundamentally to do with PvP.

Now I know it is easier to argue from a point of fiction and get wrapped up in side issues because the fundamental issue is black and white but all you are really doing is attempting to a score goal whilst ignoring the actual goal box.

Mike Evans - Designer: Elite Dangerous, posted this :-

Pretty much. The experience is the main issue and the reason we did it. The fact it has implications for multiplayer (those implications being that everything is conveniently fair) is a bonus really.

Now, whichever side of the debate you fall on this supersedes it in my opinion, FD are god here, and their view at the moment is as stated above.

 

[tooterfish]

No its not, imagine a fighter pilot who was unable to move his head in an F16 during a dogfight, versus someone who could and not only that, view it in 3d too? Are u kidding me. Its a huge advantage, even if they have a padlock system there will be milliseconds difference which means life or death in a fight. So yea, thats B.S. and you know it. Just pick the excuse that works best for your lost cause tho..

You can move your head. I use freelook in Arma while piloting just fine using just the mouse/keyboard.

As for lost cause... did you read the quotes from Michael Brookes and Mike Evans in the OP? You're the one who's arguing against the tide here buddy, the fact that you think you aren't shows how blinkered and self centred your view is.

Frontier have already explicitly stated that a 3rd person view is undesirable to them. If you want it in, you're the one who's going to have to be more compelling, not those opposed to it... Because they already got their way.

But whatever, I'm about done with this circular argument. Enjoy yourself.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

What about people with Oculus Rift Vs those who don't. HUGE disadvantage. What about people with TrackIR vs those who don't? They will be fumbling with the hat controls to keep the enemy in view! UNFAIR. Where does it stop..

I don't get this argument at all, it is simple to me. Track ir and the rift both bring the ED experience closer to the devs vision of playing in the commanders eyes. A magic god view is completely counter to this. Some on here are hoping for a nerfed compromise to allow some eye candy shots. This may happen but time and again you have made it clear this is not what u want. You want a full on unlimited 3rd person view. This will never happen and IMO you need to accept it and enjoy the game for what it is or move on to a better fit.

Elite will never be warthunder arcade mode, it is much more like warthunder historical battles and personally I am so glad of that. Personally I would be happy with 2 game modes (like warthunder) so long as never the 2 could meet but AFAIK that is a no go as its yet another split in the player base for those who care about multiplayer. (I am not one of them)

 

[jabokai]

Now, whichever side of the debate you fall on this supersedes it in my opinion, FD are god here, and their view at the moment is as stated above.

Indeed, it is their ball.

I guess I'm just fed up of PvP being raised everywhere - weapons, gimbals, manoeuvrability, view, controllers, etc. It really comes across as if we're going to be spending most of our time fighting other players... and if you look at the scope of the game (not just the vastness of space, but the wealth of different things to do) and the repercussions of actually destroying other people's ships and then sit back and think about it for a second... well, it's just not the case. So it's getting tiresome (to me) that so much effort and argument is wasted on such a small part of the game.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Got to be careful here, there'll be petitions for helmet flipping animations in a minute.

Just wait and see!

 

[Frobitz]

Indeed, it is their ball.

I guess I'm just fed up of PvP being raised everywhere - weapons, gimbals, manoeuvrability, view, controllers, etc. It really comes across as if we're going to be spending most of our time fighting other players... and if you look at the scope of the game (not just the vastness of space, but the wealth of different things to do) and the repercussions of actually destroying other people's ships and then sit back and think about it for a second... well, it's just not the case. So it's getting tiresome (to me) that so much effort and argument is wasted on such a small part of the game.

I guess the Alpha has somewhat brought concerns about PvP to the fore for a lot of people, which is understandable given how cramped it is compared to the full galaxy.

 

[Rog]

So it's getting tiresome (to me) that so much effort and argument is wasted on such a small part of the game.

I can assure you that you're not on your own!

 

[Kettle]

Nah, even though I am great with third person point of view and that would be cheating in combat and an great advantage for me ..

.. so no