External View [A definitive discussion]

[NeilF]

I don't think anyone would argue against that. But the devil is in the detail, as ever, and it is how you go about designing it to work well for those that want to make machinima or simply view their ships doing cool stuff from the outside while simultaneously ensuring that it cannot be abused in some way to gain advantage over another human player.

Absolutely, and we of course have people with differing opinions on the mechanics/problems within this

We have some people (like myself) who really feel the game would be missing something without it, and can happily envisage a nerfed external view not providing a combat (etc) advantage.

And we of course have others who see problems with it.

Hopefully FD can make both camps happy.

 

[PacalB]

Im sure FD want us to be able to see our ships from an external viewpoint. It may even be required at some point when we have EVA and can send probes out to inspect external ship damage etc - or sending it scouting the inside of a derelict ship. But that viewpoint doesn't necessarily mean a 3rd person one. It could be like I said, a piped video feed from an external probe to the cockpit HUD.

I can just see it now, I go EVA with my Linhof Techno 5000 (future version) camera and get some beautiful exterior shots of ship and planets.

 

[NeilF]

Yeah, that's a fair assessment. Personally I think FD don't want us to experience Elite Dangerous from anywhere but the pilots eyes since the pilot is the most important aspect of the whole game - not his ship. And I'm fine with that. It fits in with my vision of what the game is all about - me against the universe.

Maybe so, but they're already breaking that rule in a number of places. eg: Somehow the galaxy map is projected into your full FOV? Yet, I haven't seen players crying out for this to instead to be placed on a smaller HUD because it ruins the gaming experience.

Furthermore, if an external view can be simply nerfed down (which I think it can), then it's not compulsory. ie: Don't press F7 (or what ever key it is)

Anyway, we're treading old ground here

 

[Memnoch]

Maybe so, but they're already breaking that rule in a number of places. eg: Somehow the galaxy map is projected into your full FOV? Yet, I haven't seen players crying out for this to instead to be placed on a smaller HUD because it ruins the gaming experience.

Erm, placeholder?

 

[Makasuro]

Please no external views AT ALL.

You add in a non-combat external view, and I guarantee someone will hack it.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

I can just see it now, I go EVA with my Linhof Techno 5000 (future version) camera and get some beautiful exterior shots of ship and planets.

You know I think that would be much more fun and interactive than a detached impersonal 3rd person view. Actually having to go EVA, possibly with a jetpac, and conducting repairs, or just sight-seeing as you zip around the exterior of your ship. I can imagine wearing the Oculus Rift and drifting high above a planet, detached from my ship and looking at the immense spinning world below me though my own virtual eyes

 

[NeilF]

Please no external views AT ALL.

You add in a non-combat external view, and I guarantee someone will hack it.

Surely the counter argument is, if you don't add an external view, it's even likely to be hacked (by people wanting to use it) but offering one that isn't balanced specifically by FD?

 

[Memnoch]

And that's the concern. If they did though, and it was hacked, I would hope that FD have a way of completely removing it from the game until the exploit was fixed.

 

[NeilF]

And that's the concern. If they did though, and it was hacked, I would hope that FD have a way of completely removing it from the game until the exploit was fixed.

So it's a null argument? ie: If FD offer an external view, it will be hacked, so let's not offer it.

If they don't offer one, there is an even greater risk of an external view being hacked in - as people want it - and as such the view being more exploitable as FD didn't design it.

IMHO, it's a poor argument against external view.

 

[Memnoch]

If they don't offer one, there is an even greater risk of an external view being hacked in - as people want it - and as such the view being more exploitable as FD didn't design it.

I think you can do something like that right now with the Oculus Rift, right? I seem to remember a video of someone which appeared to show their "head" right outside the cockpit. Perhaps an extreme version of that.

So no, its not an argument against it, simply a request that if it was hacked FD have the tools to completely remove it from the game until it is "fixed".

 

[Darkoba]

I seem to remember in one version of Elite (don't remember which one) there were missiles available which had cameras fitted so the pilot could see the progress of the missile from the missile's POV, until impact.

Surely a smaller version of this, a remote controlled probe which could fly around the ship, could be used for damage inspection, to admire the lines of the ship, or even close up to the canopy, looking in, to make sure the pilot's hair is neat and tidy, could be added (as a unit which might be bought and fitted at some stations) as an optional extra?

 

[kfsone]

I'm very confused.

2014. Cars have had a "rear view" since the 1930s, but now also have rear view cameras and even radar. Even un-manned space vehicles have as many as 30 cameras on them.

3300. Your ship is capable of projecting holographic displays, has LIDAR and RADAR that scan out to 1/10th of a light second instantly.

You're in a metal hull surrounded by vacuum.

And you don't even have a rear-view mirror or a docking camera.

2014. Using very simple technology, martian rover is able to take selfies.

3300. It's "unrealistic" that an FTL capable space-ship can deploy a camera on a nano-fibre or some kind of fixed antenna to ensure vehicle safety and perform real-time transforms to give you an external view view your helmet/hud/implants.

But it's not unrealistic that when you die as a result of hitting that rock you couldn't see, you magically re-appear at the next station...

~.~

 

[Commander M.O.]

It's hard to imagine not having an external view after playing Frontier: Elite 2. External view added so much to that game.

Ah, well.

 

[NeilF]

I'm very confused.

2014. Cars have had a "rear view" since the 1930s, but now also have rear view cameras and even radar. Even un-manned space vehicles have as many as 30 cameras on them.

3300. Your ship is capable of projecting holographic displays, has LIDAR and RADAR that scan out to 1/10th of a light second instantly.

You're in a metal hull surrounded by vacuum.

And you don't even have a rear-view mirror or a docking camera.

2014. Using very simple technology, martian rover is able to take selfies.

3300. It's "unrealistic" that an FTL capable space-ship can deploy a camera on a nano-fibre or some kind of fixed antenna to ensure vehicle safety and perform real-time transforms to give you an external view view your helmet/hud/implants.

But it's not unrealistic that when you die as a result of hitting that rock you couldn't see, you magically re-appear at the next station...

~.~

Yes, we know it's unrealistic... but there's game play mechanics to keep balanced too!

It's the same reason the weapons have poorer aiming capabilities than a 1980s helicopter for example! eg: Imagine a Cobra with the aiming capability of an Apache Longbow + 1000yrs

 

[Robert Maynard]

But it's not unrealistic that when you die as a result of hitting that rock you couldn't see, you magically re-appear at the next station...

~.~

You can choose to play in IronMan mode with no escape pod, after all....

 

[NeilF]

Loads of external viewage in the latest video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex2nGIvbiVI

I know this is nothing more than presentation liberties from FD... but there's a lot of external viewing used! Just saying!

 

[Tuckwit]

Just a simple Cinematic flyby View, that's all I'd like to see.

If you don't want it don't use it. I don't understand the problem.

If there not going to add it to the game, then stop showing these videos with external views, why should the developers have all the fun!

I think of all the hundreds of Space, Flying & driving sims I've played over the years with external views. They were so wrong. If only I'd realised how it was breaking the immersion I would have never bought them dam it :/ Flight Sim X - pah, never again.

Of course, seeing AI ships wobbling erratically around and ship engines firing when not accelerating doesn't break immersion at all...

 

[kfsone]

Yes, we know it's unrealistic... but there's game play mechanics to keep balanced too!

It's the same reason the weapons have poorer aiming capabilities than a 1980s helicopter for example! eg: Imagine a Cobra with the aiming capability of an Apache Longbow + 1000yrs

Erh - rubbish. External view has no intrinsic balance value in a game that has an iconic radar display front and center alongside a holographic 3d display that shows you where your shields have been hit for the same reasons that having an Oculus or a joystick or a throttle isn't unbalancing.

There are games where external view does have an effect - but even many of those successfully pull off some limited version of external view, and I don't have a problem with constraints on such a system.

Almost all of the arguments against external view are just plain whiney and primitive.

Free-form unconstrained camera positioning I can conceed, but the ability to view the exterior of your ship, and/or from multiple cameras placed around the ship is nothing but good game design and good player experience, and in this context, entirely consistent with maintaining immersion.

-Oliver

 

[MikeSnos]

If there is to be an external view of some kind then this should not be fullscreen and should be displayed within the console in the form of a video screen or as a semi-opaque partial overlay on the HUD.

 

[CaptainSodom]

As a would-be galactic photographer, an external view is a must.

As others have pointed out, it doesn't make any sense not to have one based on cameras or drones. Realism of that is irrelevant, as it only enhances gameplay.

For those who don't like the idea because it is "immersion breaking" (see above for rebuttal), don't use it.

And it really imbalances the game in combat - not just some players refusing to use it, but imbalancing it -, disable such views in combat.