FD utter failure: engineering brought to an excess

[Guest 161958]

What would it take to convince you that defense has benefitted more from engineering than offense?

The strongest engineering mods I can think of only increase damage output by ~+80%.
Otoh, using a Chieftain for example, just adding the reinforced/hicap mod (on a 5A gen), and HD super capacitors to 2 A class shield boosters brings the raw shield values from ~339 to ~877!
That's almost exactly double the change at ~+160%

There is no need to convince, I agree. I never said it was not true. Still the end result is that you can one shot ships. That is what I think should be rebalanced somehow. This game should be a pleasant experience for everybody (if you disagree on this point well, you should stay in a private group and not in open in my opinion and not force others to go to private groups), but if you get one shotted so easily because you decided to blaze your trail, well...

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Please not again with the belittling. I have built so many ships.. I agree with you that build skill is a factor, but what I am trying to say is the extreme is too extreme.

It's not belittling.

The Explorer Meta and the Combat Meta are fundamentally very, very different. Unfortunately, one of those gimps a ship's defenses against pretty much anything. Couple that with pilots that don't have a lot of combat and evasion experience and you're in for a bad day. This is why ships get one shotted.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

There is no need to convince, I agree. I never said it was not true. Still the end result is that you can one shot ships. That is what I think should be rebalanced somehow. This game should be a pleasant experience for everybody (if you disagree on this point well, you should stay in a private group), but if you get one shotted so easily because you decided to blaze your trail, well...

Time to kill has not decreased overall, but increased, so it seems to me you have things backwards if anything.

Furthermore you don't need to build a paper bag to go exploring since jump ranges have benefited from engineering too, not to mention those Guardian FSD boosters.

Are you suggesting people not be allowed to build fragile ships?
It is a choice.


"Pleasant" is subjective.
Having it be that for everyone is impossible.
That's exactly why they let you create private groups, where additional constraints may be added.

 

[Maolagin]

Good grief, another one of these threads. I usually refrain from responding and adding to the chaff, but hey, my 2p...

The thing is, the OP isn't wrong, exactly. There *is* something off about the balance of the game. Not the one-shot thing though - as others have said, you would entirely expect that ships highly optimized for one purpose would fail pretty hard at a totally different one. In our world, nobody's going to build a race car that would survive a tank round, either. Thing is, in our world, you also don't expect to have to put on battle armor to cross the street. There's a general expectation of safety, or at least that the powers that be don't generally tolerate psycho killers on every block.

So one question worth asking is, is that a reasonable expectation for the Elite world? I'm legitimately unclear on this point. It's entirely possible that Frontier intends to make a game set in a dystopian world where governments are unable or unwilling to control the roving bands of mass murderers. Plenty of games are set in worlds like that, after all. It's a bit out of step with the generally upbeat tone we get from Galnet and such, but it's conceivable. On the other hand, if that *isn't* the developers' intent, then something is definitely wrong, but the trouble lies with ineffectual C&P and a lack of engaging content for advanced players, not the engineered weapons.

On a more micro level, it seems to me that the logical balance between exploration ships and warships would lie around stealth or evasion. The PvP folks around here say that if anything, physical defenses need a nerf, not a buff, and I see no reason to doubt that. There's also no reason to expect some long-range DBX designed for the deep black to be able to tank a volley of plasma death, but I would absolutely expect such a ship to be able to avoid the star destroyers. Either through using agility to beat the interdiction, evading in normal space, flying under the radar, or just generally being faster. "Avoid the system where the interesting gameplay is happening" definitely shouldn't be the answer though, because that's just terrible game design.

 

[Guest 161958]

Time to kill has not decreased overall, but increased, so it seems to me you have things backwards if anything.

Furthermore you don't need to build a paper bag to go exploring since jump ranges have benefited from engineering too, not to mention those Guardian FSD boosters.

Are you suggesting people not be allowed to build fragile ships?
It is a choice.


"Pleasant" is subjective.
Having it be that for everyone is impossible.
That's exactly why they let you create private groups, where additional constraints may be added.

No I am suggesting one shot kill is unpleasant.

If you view open as the public server, it is more like everyone's. Now it is only the competitive crowd's one. That is backwards in my opinion. But yes, in the end, they are just names so no point to discuss it.

 

[Stealthie]

FDev should create an "event" where, say, a couple of stars are colliding and everybody needs to get at least 500Ly away within 10 minutes or be destroyed.

That should help even up the odds between the exploration and PvP ships. [up]

 

[Guest 161958]

Good grief, another one of these threads. I usually refrain from responding and adding to the chaff, but hey, my 2p...

The thing is, the OP isn't wrong, exactly. There *is* something off about the balance of the game. Not the one-shot thing though - as others have said, you would entirely expect that ships highly optimized for one purpose would fail pretty hard at a totally different one. In our world, nobody's going to build a race car that would survive a tank round, either. Thing is, in our world, you also don't expect to have to put on battle armor to cross the street. There's a general expectation of safety, or at least that the powers that be don't generally tolerate psycho killers on every block.

So one question worth asking is, is that a reasonable expectation for the Elite world? I'm legitimately unclear on this point. It's entirely possible that Frontier intends to make a game set in a dystopian world where governments are unable or unwilling to control the roving bands of mass murderers. Plenty of games are set in worlds like that, after all. It's a bit out of step with the generally upbeat tone we get from Galnet and such, but it's conceivable. On the other hand, if that *isn't* the developers' intent, then something is definitely wrong, but the trouble lies with ineffectual C&P and a lack of engaging content for advanced players, not the engineered weapons.

On a more micro level, it seems to me that the logical balance between exploration ships and warships would lie around stealth or evasion. The PvP folks around here say that if anything, physical defenses need a nerf, not a buff, and I see no reason to doubt that. There's also no reason to expect some long-range DBX designed for the deep black to be able to tank a volley of plasma death, but I would absolutely expect such a ship to be able to avoid the star destroyers. Either through using agility to beat the interdiction, evading in normal space, flying under the radar, or just generally being faster. "Avoid the system where the interesting gameplay is happening" definitely shouldn't be the answer though, because that's just terrible game design.

good points.
Especially the last bit about avoiding the system. No wonder returning players and casual ones quit the game for that.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

No I am suggesting one shot kill is unpleasant.

If you view open as the public server, it is more like everyone's. Now it is only the competitive crowd's one. That is backwards in my opinion. But yes, in the end, they are just names so no point to discuss it.

You are saying things as if they are facts, but they are not.
Open IS the public server, for everyone.
Obfuscation is silly.

Lots of people fly in open and don't have any care for competition, PVP or even engineering.
You cannot have a wide variety and scaling up of ships without disparity in power.

In short, it will always be possible to overpower or gang up on someone.
But the changes to Elite over time have made it easier to defend yourself.

You can choose to empower yourself with the tools available.
There are solo and PGs otherwise.
No shame in that.
Hemming and hawing doen't really help though, does it?

 

[Stealthie]

The thing is, the OP isn't wrong, exactly. There *is* something off about the balance of the game. Not the one-shot thing though - as others have said, you would entirely expect that ships highly optimized for one purpose would fail pretty hard at a totally different one. In our world, nobody's going to build a race car that would survive a tank round, either. Thing is, in our world, you also don't expect to have to put on battle armor to cross the street. There's a general expectation of safety, or at least that the powers that be don't generally tolerate psycho killers on every block.

So one question worth asking is, is that a reasonable expectation for the Elite world? I'm legitimately unclear on this point. It's entirely possible that Frontier intends to make a game set in a dystopian world where governments are unable or unwilling to control the roving bands of mass murderers. Plenty of games are set in worlds like that, after all. It's a bit out of step with the generally upbeat tone we get from Galnet and such, but it's conceivable. On the other hand, if that *isn't* the developers' intent, then something is definitely wrong, but the trouble lies with ineffectual C&P and a lack of engaging content for advanced players, not the engineered weapons.

I've said the same thing myself.

Kind of stating the obvious but, when it comes to combat vs other types of ship, it's like playing a game of "rock/paper/Uzi" - Uzi always wins.

The (rather convoluted) analogy I use is to imagine Bill Gates getting beaten up in a bar.
If he wanted to take revenge, he's probably not going to go to a gym, work out, learn Macrame and then go back to the bar for a re-match.
He's got his own advantages and he's probably going to buy the company where his attacker works and then fire him, buy the loan company where his attacker has a mortgage and then repossess his house or use his contacts to have the guy frames for some crime and put in jail.

If FDev intend for there to be any kind of "balance" between combat and other pursuits, and mitigate the whole "rock/paper/Uzi" thing, they need to come up with various things that people can do to deter combat aside from simply doing combat.

 

[Guest 161958]

You are saying things as if they are facts, but they are not.
Open IS the public server, for everyone.
Obfuscation is silly.

Lots of people fly in open and don't have any care for competition, PVP or even engineering.
You cannot have a wide variety and scaling up of ships without disparity in power.

In short, it will always be possible to overpower or gang up on someone.
But the changes to Elite over time have made it easier to defend yourself.

You can choose to empower yourself with the tools available.
There are solo and PGs otherwise.
No shame in that.
Hemming and hawing doen't really help though, does it?

Yes, but one shot kill is too much.

 

[Riverside]

Hemming and hawing doen't really help though, does it?

If you mean pointing out problems I think it can help improve the game for all, not just the ones that nerd out on stats

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Case in point, here's the engineers progress on my new *exploration* alt account that I started at the end of November, who is now on DW2:

Note that it's sorted by access level, so I've unlocked all the main engineers except for Jameson, and they are all at G5.

My ship is fully G5'd with reinforced prismatic shields and overcharged Pacifiers, 4 SRVs, dirty/drag drives and still does over 50ly.

If you choose to fly a paper bag know it's a choice.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

If you mean pointing out problems I think it can help improve the game for all, not just the ones that nerd out on stats

No, that's not what I mean.
But that's never stopped you before...!

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Yes, but one shot kill is too much.

Why?

If you choose to fly a weak ship, why is one shot too little*?


*I assume that's what you really mean, right?

 

[Ahernar]

I have issues with instancing , i don't apreciate poping gankers from thin air 1 km from me . Defeated all the preparations i made , except that i was flying a 300k rebuy ship . From this i would not recommend changing your standard explo builds - you get 1 volleyd by several ships instead of just one . By the way , ze gankers can populate a instance with more than 4 , if they feel is necessary can be even 8+ at a single instance waitinting for someone to drop in (or like in my case materialise in front of them , sooo convenient ) .

 

[Marcus Tullius]

LOL OP, if you are talking about the videos of one particular player in a full gimbaled frag Piton, you don’t know what you are talking about.
I’ve watched few encounters and I can say; yes the game needs balancing. Definitely slightly increasing of frag’s damage is necessary. Some of them were able successfully to combat log. Watched may be five encounters in a row and what I saw was disgusting. All of them without exception after interdiction didn’t try anything but CL. No boost, no chaff – nothing. One of them in Beluga has taken two others in MC, he successfully CL and then there were explanations in chat, how poor the internet in his country is (yeah, that’s why he had taken two others in MC), how he really, truly has lost connection etc. It was so pity. The Fleetcom must be proud to have such players under their flag. What a fleet of dedicated cheaters! LOL!

This Piton build has been made to counter nothing but CL. It is utterly useless against anything but sitting ducks. This guy had expected such behavior and he has been right.

 

[Marra Morgan]

Yes, but one shot kill is too much.

Yes, but this is not down to Frontier - they've provided the tools and resources to prevent that.

This is on the players who are playing in Open and not building ships accordingly.

 

[Chaparral]

Here's the thing. If you're traveling in an exploration ship where the minimum jump distance between systems is say 45ly, you're much less likely to be threatened by run n' gun shotgunners. It is in this environment where the exploration ships have the advantage.

But that isn't what the majority of the exploration process happens to be. If you're jumping in the 30-40 ly range, there are plenty of gank ships that comfortably have that range.

So if your exploration truly requires those big jumps, then by all means build the paper kite. But if you're more about cashing in on all those ELW and WW and NS and BHs, and you can get there in shorter hops, well, Open is a pretty scary to run soft in.

Of course, if we had a PVE Open well (ok I'll go away now).

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Hello, uber-lightweight and "careless" explorer here, I don't care about the differences between explorer and combat ships, when I make my ships I make them for a role and dealing with murder-hobos is not one of them, hence, if I were to see one I'd not expect to survive very long at all.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Please not again with the belittling. I have built so many ships.. I agree with you that build skill is a factor, but what I am trying to say is the extreme is too extreme.

The game philosophy allows for a buffet of ship types with their pro and cons and with the advent of the engineers, these roles got accentuated. If you do not wish to be in the extremes so be it, but there are people like me who enjoy to specialize our ships.