Griefers make open impossible, and how easy the solution is.

[CMDR M. Lehman]

So u are fine with one being able to choose mobius as long as its not broad knowledge?
Cause thats only thing that would change if open pve would be a thing.

Open pve is already there, just ppl dont know about it. And you seem to have big issues making it more popular.

I'd say that Mobius is one of things I can't really control. I do think that it's based on a flawed and- frankly- eyeroll-worthy approach to open, but that's simply my opinion and not a commentary on its legitimacy as a gameplay option. It exists, it doesn't break any rules, and so I can't really object to it in that context.

That being said, a Frontier-crafted version of open that totally eliminates PvP would annihilate, in my view, the wild unpredictability and potential danger that makes open open. I'll say it again: endeavoring to increase the number of people in open isn't a good idea if doing so means compromising the very spirit of open. Elimating that player-on-player unpredictability would do exactly that.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

That being said, a Frontier-crafted version of open that totally eliminates PvP would annihilate, in my view, the wild unpredictability and potential danger that makes open open. I'll say it again: endeavoring to increase the number of people in open isn't a good idea if doing so means compromising the very spirit of open. Elimating that player-on-player unpredictability would do exactly that.

Couple of things,

The original Open with PvP enabled would not cease to exist, so you can still have your unpredictability and potential danger, your very spirit of open (in your most humble of opinions of course, my version is more along the lines of meeting random other players for instance) would still exist, and it won't be elimating that player-on-player unpredictability you crave, since that also is still available.

My objection to Open PvE would be more along the lines of practicality. Not because of some subjective idea of how Open should be.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

Couple of things,

The original Open with PvP enabled would not cease to exist, so you can still have your unpredictability and potential danger, your very spirit of open (in your most humble of opinions of course, my version is more along the lines of meeting random other players for instance) would still exist, and it won't be elimating that player-on-player unpredictability you crave, since that also is still available.

My objection to Open PvE would be more along the lines of practicality. Not because of some subjective idea of how Open should be.

Yes, there's that as well. I don't think that most people have fully thought through the multitude of gameplay mechanics that would have to be rejigged in order to prevent player-on-player damage. To be quite frank, it's more effort than it would be worth, especially since two out of the three game modes already provide a PvP-free experience for those who don't want it. And the third? Well, you get your wish 99 percent of the time, which are odds I'd absolutely take in my private life.

 

[Bashy81]

This thread really has come to places! Way to go.
That's so cute! This guy gives me ideas.
What's the salt for the PvP griefer is the for the PvE griefer...

Have you never come across this before? For every 'Stop the Griefers: OpenPvE' thread there is a 'Stop the Griefers: OpenOnly BGS' thread.
It's two sides of the same coin. Clearly there is more in ED than is dreamt of in your philosophy. Or mine, for that matter.

Ruining other people game experience just for the fun of it is the essence of what it means to be a griefer in a video game.

For the fun of it, or for the effect of grinding players down, until they give up? Does the intent matter? A lot of players dont want to be forced to match the grind of a salty solo/pg dweller, or give up on their goals. They either slave themselves to their opponent's grind-rate or quit in disgust.

Doing stuff like that is toxic. It's why Open has such a bad reputation.

Same thing for grinding in Solo. That, and exploits and hacks are why Solo/PG has such a bad reputation.

No the problem is that some people feel entitled to ruin everybody else's game experience

2 sides of the same coin. Solo/pg players who dont care about the background effects of their actions are just the same. They feel entitled to ruin everybody elses game experience.

And then when confronted with the fact that they are driving players away they decide to blame the players that are leaving instead of looking in the mirror.

Cue a chorus of: "you could play in Solo/PG too, you have the same tools available to you"

Keep believing that. Players will keep getting forced into Solo and we will continue to see threads with thousands of posts talking about how toxic Open can be. Which will just drive even more players away.

Players driven to solo to have same solo/pg advantage for BGS grinding. Leading more players who wont stoop to that, to quit in frustration.

In the meantime even someone has brought "PvE griefing" (LoL) to the table. This is also absolutely valid gameplay, because the game does not forbid this.

See all the other quotes in this post. Plus ganking is absolutely valid gameplay by your same logic. So is overpowered 5C that makes a complete farce of faction conflicts, and solo/pg grind, even in a game feature that is player-driven.

grief·er
/ˈɡrēfə/

(in an online game or community) a person who harasses or deliberately provokes other players or members in order to spoil their enjoyment.

See all of the examples above.

It is more complicated than you realise. The reality isnt some fairytale bad-gankers attacking good-carebears bedtime story. The negative feedback flows both ways, and neither side is a simple caricature of embodied virtues or sins, no matter their hair-colour in avatar or RL.

You shouldnt damn one form of 'griefing' and give a free-pass to another. They both cause frustration to players. One has in-game solutions like solo/pg and mobius. The other has no solutions, just surrender. It's just put up with it, go to solo/PG as well, or quit. You either surrender yourself to the workrate dictated by your opponent, or surrender altogether & quit. If only the solution was so temporary and mild as clicking 'rebuy'.

If there is a justification for any 'griefing' to be addressed, then it should be to split the BGS across modes so there is a level playingfield for all. Because the solo/pg form of 'griefing' has no solutions but surrender.

 

[galahad2069]

Currently: u dont want to be pirated? Go solo/pg.U want run into pirate? Go to open.

With pvp toggle: U dont want to be pirated? Pvp off. U want to be pirated? Pvp on.

U are just replacing invisible solo players with visible solo players

Worst idea ever. No god mode toggle needed.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

If there is a justification for any 'griefing' to be addressed, then it should be to split the BGS across modes so there is a level playingfield for all. Because the solo/pg form of 'griefing' has no solutions but surrender.

Like your post, except for this, using the exact (correct) reasoning you used in the rest of your post.

The solo/pg form of griefing has the same defence as the open form. Play the game their way. You call that surrender, so that goes both ways too.

If I have to grind engineering in order to survive PvP encounters, I would call that surrendering as well. I am not going to do that, so I just surrender full stop. You interdict me, I sit back and wait for what happens.

 

[CNC drill press]

That being said, a Frontier-crafted version of open that totally eliminates PvP would annihilate, in my view, the wild unpredictability and potential danger that makes open open.

How would it eliminate pvp? Are you afraid other will not want to play with you? Cause noone is asking to have current open removed.

I'll say it again: endeavoring to increase the number of people in open isn't a good idea if doing so means compromising the very spirit of open. Elimating that player-on-player unpredictability would do exactly that.

You can have all unpredictability u want in pvp open.

Have you never come across this before? For every 'Stop the Griefers: OpenPvE' thread there is a 'Stop the Griefers: OpenOnly BGS' thread.
It's two sides of the same coin. Clearly there is more in ED than is dreamt of in your philosophy. Or mine, for that matter.

For the fun of it, or for the effect of grinding players down, until they give up? Does the intent matter? A lot of players dont want to be forced to match the grind of a salty solo/pg dweller, or give up on their goals. They either slave themselves to their opponent's grind-rate or quit in disgust.

Same thing for grinding in Solo. That, and exploits and hacks are why Solo/PG has such a bad reputation.

2 sides of the same coin. Solo/pg players who dont care about the background effects of their actions are just the same. They feel entitled to ruin everybody elses game experience.

Cue a chorus of: "you could play in Solo/PG too, you have the same tools available to you"

Players driven to solo to have same solo/pg advantage for BGS grinding. Leading more players who wont stoop to that, to quit in frustration.

See all the other quotes in this post. Plus ganking is absolutely valid gameplay by your same logic. So is overpowered 5C that makes a complete farce of faction conflicts, and solo/pg grind, even in a game feature that is player-driven.

See all of the examples above.

It is more complicated than you realise. The reality isnt some fairytale bad-gankers attacking good-carebears bedtime story. The negative feedback flows both ways, and neither side is a simple caricature of embodied virtues or sins, no matter their hair-colour in avatar or RL.

You shouldnt damn one form of 'griefing' and give a free-pass to another. They both cause frustration to players. One has in-game solutions like solo/pg and mobius. The other has no solutions, just surrender. It's just put up with it, go to solo/PG as well, or quit. You either surrender yourself to the workrate dictated by your opponent, or surrender altogether & quit. If only the solution was so temporary and mild as clicking 'rebuy'.

If there is a justification for any 'griefing' to be addressed, then it should be to split the BGS across modes so there is a level playingfield for all. Because the solo/pg form of 'griefing' has no solutions but surrender.

I dont get why u keep saying pve would bring doom to BGS. If someone want to do that he can just go to pg/solo. Adding extra mode will not change a thing in that matter.

 

[Brrokk]

Doesn't the introduction of an Open PvE mode make Mobius (not necessarily PG as such as some want to play with select friends/players only) redundant? You're splitting the player base between those two (again, I don't care either way but I'm sure FDev needs to consider these things) unless you severely limit maximum allowable player numbers per PG to something like 10-20.

Yes, it would make Mobius redundant and be a better solution to the same requirement. And I don't think anyone would be more pleased than the Mobius admins, who are doing FD's very difficult work for them using inadequate PG admin tools.

 

[Brrokk]

Let's not forget that how the modes work is based purely on instancing. Solo instances with no-one else, PG instances with select other players and open instances with everyone.

A PvE mode would be a complete re-write since there is no mode that runs a code to determine if the player has a setting selected and then applies or does not apply damage according to this setting. ...

No setting needed. If you were in Open-PvE you would be in "PvE mode". The game already tracks the source of all damage; It has to, to award bounties and combat bonds. Coding would be along the lines "If source=player then damage=0", maybe with a semicolon at the end.

...
Is there be anyone who would genuinely he happy that this was implemented, with the risks of possible issues and have it delay the new era update by a significant margin? ...

Yes.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

How would it eliminate pvp? Are you afraid other will not want to play with you? Cause noone is asking to have current open removed.

It isn't really about me playing with others. It's down to a simple question: how many features can one subtract from open and still reasonably call it "open"?

For me, the answer is: zero.

Elite already holds one's hand quite a bit when it comes to facilitating a PvP-free experience. At some point you have to just... accept some risk if you want to play in open.

Or not. Blocking is a thing, after all. I just cringe a little every time I see someone so passionate about their demand for a risk-free gameplay experience, when they could have channeled that energy into acquiring evasive and outfitting skills instead.

 

[A C Ender]

Simple as that.


Yes it will make mobius redundant and obsolete. It will mean game will directly support mobius. Number of cmdr assigned to mobius shows demand for this feature. I will be simply easier access than currently.

Go to deicat or davs hope (HGE is better and no immeraion breaking, but i wanted to see what is this everyone was refering in guides and stuff)

That is argument for PVP toggle. Its not for Open PVE mode.

I've been to Deciat. Some times someone tried to gank me, others not. Never managed to kill me. How often do you really need to go specifically to Deciat anyway? You only need to go to engineers for the experimental.

Same with Davs Hope, you don't need to go there if you don't want to. You know the risk: approach accordingly. Same goes for Shinrata. If you get repeatedly killed in systems known for players fighting player ships, you should remember:

"Insanity is repeating the same action and expect a different result" - Do something different! Change your ship, loadout, behaviour. Don't be a sheep and expect the game to change around you.

The dangers of opens are highly exaggerated by opponents of it.

I've been mining in open a couple times the last few days. First time there was no other players in the sell system, second time there was one, but I used SC navigation to avoid interdiction attempt. I did the same both times in Borann, and didn't get interdicted either time.

 

[A C Ender]

No setting needed. If you were in Open-PvE you would be in "PvE mode". The game already tracks the source of all damage; It has to, to award bounties and combat bonds. Coding would be along the lines "If source=player then damage=0", maybe with a semicolon at the end.


Yes.

Have you looked at the code? For all we know, it could be hard coded so that contributed is derived from damage done and you would have to rewrite the entire game.

It might also be easy, but everything I've heard from actual programmers is that changes like this can be anything between trivial and impossible without changing the entire game.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

No setting needed. If you were in Open-PvE you would be in "PvE mode". The game already tracks the source of all damage; It has to, to award bounties and combat bonds. Coding would be along the lines "If source=player then damage=0", maybe with a semicolon at the end.

So how are you dealing with all the other issues? Griefing wouldn't stop purely by stopping damage. Also, how sure are you that this wouldn't cause other issues? Again, look what changes to how we pay for cosmetics did to things. Can you absolutely guarantee this wouldn't cause an issue elsewhere?

Yes.

Does everyone else agree? Did you ask? This forum would hardly be a representative section of the entire player base and neither would the players who play in Mobius.

 

[Old Duck]

If I have to grind engineering in order to survive PvP encounters, I would call that surrendering as well. I am not going to do that, so I just surrender full stop. You interdict me, I sit back and wait for what happens.

This is the problem - griefers have monopolized the definition of PvP. When I PvP these days, it's non-violent piracy, and more times than not it probably adds to the enjoyment of the player on the "receiving end" since I try to do things very differently than these cookie-cutter NPC pirates. I very much do NOT want to push anyone into Solo, so I never kill my targets, nor am I greedy when it comes to what I take. Nor do I pirate the same person 20 times in a single session.

Unfortunately I am the exception rather than the rule it seems, and thus the proliferation of threads like this.

BTW, on the subject of Mobius and PvE, this is one of the reasons these don't work for me personally, because they are too restrictive. You can't even fight an opposing player in a CZ in Mobius / PvE. This is why I keep preaching the most tried, true, and wonderful solution to the problem of gankers / griefers - BLOCK THEM. This will eventually turn your Open into PvE / PvP-Lite, no new modes required, and you* can do this TODAY

* "you" being anyone who wants PvE Open. Some people don't want any interaction with other players, and I understand and respect that.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

This is the problem - griefers have monopolized the definition of PvP. When I PvP these days, it's non-violent piracy, and more times than not it probably adds to the enjoyment of the player on the "receiving end" since I try to do things very differently than these cookie-cutter NPC pirates. I very much do NOT want to push anyone into Solo, so I never kill my targets, nor am I greedy when it comes to what I take. Nor do I pirate the same person 20 times in a single session.

Unfortunately I am the exception rather than the rule it seems, and thus the proliferation of threads like this.

BTW, on the subject of Mobius and PvE, this is one of the reasons these don't work for me personally, because they are too restrictive. You can't even fight an opposing player in a CZ in Mobius / PvE. This is why I keep preaching the most tried, true, and wonderful solution to the problem of gankers / griefers - BLOCK THEM. This will eventually turn your Open into PvE / PvP-Lite, no new modes required, and you* can do this TODAY

* "you" being anyone who wants PvE Open. Some people don't want any interaction with other players, and I understand and respect that.

I hope you have a better experience with PvP piracy than many others have. Most people just combat log. It's a frustrating gig.

 

[Brrokk]

So how are you dealing with all the other issues? Griefing wouldn't stop purely by stopping damage. Also, how sure are you that this wouldn't cause other issues? Again, look what changes to how we pay for cosmetics did to things. Can you absolutely guarantee this wouldn't cause an issue elsewhere?


Does everyone else agree? Did you ask? This forum would hardly be a representative section of the entire player base and neither would the players who play in Mobius.

The question was, does anyone want this? I do, so I answered "yes". I don't think I need to consult anyone else to know my own answer.

As for the coding; I'm a programmer. I know that there can be knock-on effects. I focused on what we can see; that damage sources are already fully tracked.

Belugas in maillots: yes, griefers will always find ways to be stupid. I don't think that should stop us wanting new features in the game though.

 

[A C Ender]

This is the problem - griefers have monopolized the definition of PvP. When I PvP these days, it's non-violent piracy, and more times than not it probably adds to the enjoyment of the player on the "receiving end" since I try to do things very differently than these cookie-cutter NPC pirates. I very much do NOT want to push anyone into Solo, so I never kill my targets, nor am I greedy when it comes to what I take. Nor do I pirate the same person 20 times in a single session.

Unfortunately I am the exception rather than the rule it seems, and thus the proliferation of threads like this.

BTW, on the subject of Mobius and PvE, this is one of the reasons these don't work for me personally, because they are too restrictive. You can't even fight an opposing player in a CZ in Mobius / PvE. This is why I keep preaching the most tried, true, and wonderful solution to the problem of gankers / griefers - BLOCK THEM. This will eventually turn your Open into PvE / PvP-Lite, no new modes required, and you* can do this TODAY

* "you" being anyone who wants PvE Open. Some people don't want any interaction with other players, and I understand and respect that.

My piracy is non violent if you comply. If you try to run instead of paying a 10T tribute, I will make every attempt to blow you up. If you submit before destruction, we may still talk, but likely I'll be less nice now that you tried to run... And any action which can be suspected as another attempt to run will result in instant violent response.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It isn't really about me playing with others. It's down to a simple question: how many features can one subtract from open and still reasonably call it "open"?

For me, the answer is: zero.

Elite already holds one's hand quite a bit when it comes to facilitating a PvP-free experience. At some point you have to just... accept some risk if you want to play in open.

Or not. Blocking is a thing, after all. I just cringe a little every time I see someone so passionate about their demand for a risk-free gameplay experience, when they could have channeled that energy into acquiring evasive and outfitting skills instead.

See, you are phrasing it correctly, when you reason this from your perspective.

Where you go off is when you translate it as a demand for a risk-free gaming experience. Here's my take.

If everyone in the Elite Universe would play by my rules, it all would be fine. There wouldn't be any gankers in Shinrarte for instance, because that just doesn't make any sense. We'd all agree that the main system of the Pilots Federation would be free of member of the Pilots Federation shooting at pilots of the Pilot Federation.

Or, if no one would be interdicting other CMDRs, just for the hell of it. Because it's just a game. I did enjoy the few encounters I had with player pirates. They had a valid in game reason to interdict me, and the one time I had cargo, I tried to escape and got shot up. No worries, that all makes sense.

But other players don't play by my rules. So, if I log in to play the game (not mess around) I'll stick to solo/pg because at least the NPCs mostly conform to the Elite Universe Logic.

This is the problem - griefers have monopolized the definition of PvP. When I PvP these days, it's non-violent piracy, and more times than not it probably adds to the enjoyment of the player on the "receiving end" since I try to do things very differently than these cookie-cutter NPC pirates. I very much do NOT want to push anyone into Solo, so I never kill my targets, nor am I greedy when it comes to what I take. Nor do I pirate the same person 20 times in a single session.

Unfortunately I am the exception rather than the rule it seems, and thus the proliferation of threads like this.

Look! Illustration!

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

See, you are phrasing it correctly, when you reason this from your perspective.

Where you go off is when you translate it as a demand for a risk-free gaming experience. Here's my take.

EDIT: If everyone in the Elite Universe would play by my rules, it all would be fine. There wouldn't be any gankers in Shinrarte for instance, because that just doesn't make any sense. We'd all agree that the main system of the Pilots Federation would be free of member of the Pilots Federation shooting at pilots of the Pilot Federation.

Or, if no one would be interdicting other CMDRs, just for the hell of it. Because it's just a game. I did enjoy the few encounters I had with player pirates. They had a valid in game reason to interdict me, and the one time I had cargo, I tried to escape and got shot up. No worries, that all makes sense.

But other players don't play by my rules. So, if I log in to pay the game (not mess around) I'll stick to solo/pg because at least the NPCs mostly conform to the Elite Universe Logic.

Look! Illustration!

I feel you. To list all the ways that I wish for Elite's gameplay to be informed by the lore would be a thread in and of itself.

But I do stand by what I suspect is the main motive for PvPless gameplay, which is the recognition that the game's greatest threat is other players. Eliminate this threat, and you're left with an arguably challenge-free experience.

I get that some among the playerbase want all the fun but none of the risk when it comes to player interaction, and all I can really do is try to remind them that between the modes, the block tool, the ridiculously overpowered defensive equipment, and the ability to high wake, they basically have that game already.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I feel you. To list all the ways that I wish for Elite's gameplay to be informed by the lore would be a thread in and of itself.

So what we need is not a free for all Open mode, not a PvE Open mode.

We need a Lore Open Mode.