Grinding isn't the player's fault

[Devari]

No Guardian stuff, haven't unlocked Cutter or Corvette, and couldn't afford them if I had. Most engineers unlocked though, my main ship is nearly all G5, and my other ships are G3 or G4 where it matters.

Selene Jean was a grind. Marco Qwent a bit too. The rest weren't, because I didn't try to do it all in one go. Every time my normal activities took me in that direction, I would make a slight detour to pick up some cigars or whatever and drop them off. Voila, no grind.

Well sure, you've avoided the grind for those activities by not doing those activities. Unfortunately FD has locked the best ships/weapons/Engineering in the game behind those grinds.

No, it isn't. You are choosing that. The game does not require progression at all. If you choose objectives which require grinding, that's your choice, the game didn't force you.

The game didn't "force you" any more than the cable company "forces" you to buy an overpriced channel package that has 1 channel you want and 5 you don't want. Did they "force" you to buy that package? Well yes and no. If you want AMC and don't want the other channels, then you have two options. Buy their overpriced package, or don't watch AMC. You don't have the option of just buying that one channel though.

It's the same with Elite. Do you want a Corvette or Cutter? What about top-end Engineering? Or Guardian tech? Or a properly-trained SLF pilot? Grind is the only way to do it.

My last pilot was Master, but he died... But like I said, no cutter or Corvette, no Guardian stuff, but engineering doesn't actually need to be a grind, if you just take your time, pin blueprints, don't rush for G5 everything, setlle for G3 or G4 in the short term, and gradually upgrade it via remote workshop until it's G5.

But yeah, over 2k hours so far, and I have had fun for nearly every minute of that. I might have spend 25 hours grinding in total over the last few years in this game, but I don't mind a little grinding. I'm probably going to grind for an hour or two tonight, because I'm not happy with my current weapons on my main ship, but I don't think I have the materials for the special effects on the new ones I want. So I'll grind untill I have enough materials for the special effects, visit the engineer and G1 them, with the special effect I want, and pin the blueprint to finish over time.
But that is EXACTLY my point. You do not have to have that stuff. You make a choice to grind and have it, or not to.

Well, since you are specifically avoiding those grinds, then I actually do believe that you can legitimately claim to have "fun" most of the time you are playing Elite. In my case, however, my in-game goals have required around 90% grind for every 10% "fun". Would I have been happy with an Anaconda instead of a Corvette or Cutter? Not really, each of those ships added to my gameplay options and provided a goal to work towards. I was "choosing" to do the grind but if I wanted to reach that goal there was no other option, except grind.

I don't completely disagree with your perspective here because you are one of the few players who has deliberately chosen not to grind and has accepted not being able to obtain certain ships, etc., as a result. In that sense you are at least consistent in terms of realizing that those goals would require grind. I can respect that because you aren't trying to claim that the "grind doesn't exist", you're making a deliberate decision to not grind at all.

 

[CariadocThorne]

The game didn't "force you" any more than the cable company "forces" you to buy an overpriced channel package that has 1 channel you want and 5 you don't want. Did they "force" you to buy that package? Well yes and no. If you want AMC and don't want the other channels, then you have two options. Buy their overpriced package, or don't watch AMC. You don't have the option of just buying that one channel though.

Funny that, the only thing I ever used to watch was the occasional football (soccer) match, or stick Kerrang on for background music. I stopped paying for cable TV, and for a TV license at all. Now my TV is only hooked up to my Xbox 360 and PS4, and I have wireless speakers around the house and Spotify for music. When a football match I really want to watch is on, I go to the pub and watch it there.

I don't completely disagree with your perspective here because you are one of the few players who has deliberately chosen not to grind and has accepted not being able to obtain certain ships, etc., as a result. In that sense you are at least consistent in terms of realizing that those goals would require grind. I can respect that because you aren't trying to claim that the "grind doesn't exist", you're making a deliberate decision to not grind at all.

Oh, I would never claim the grind doesn't exist. I've seen far worse grind-fests (funnily enough, one of them was my favourite game I've ever played, and I DID grind in that game, because 90% of the content was end-game stuff which you genuinely could not do without grinding like crazy, and in open PvP zones...), but there is difinitely some very real grinding in ED, it's just that the grind is for things you don't actually need.

Don't get me wrong, I want a Cutter one day, but I am not in a rush to get it, because I'm having fun with the ships I already have. In a year or two I'll probably have both the money and the rank for a cutter, and enough materials to fully engineer everything I put on it (and by then I'll have unlocked the last couple of engineers!)

 

[galahad2069]

But that is EXACTLY my point. You do not have to have that stuff. You make a choice to grind and have it, or not to.

It is not some kind of natural law that the stuff has to be locked behind a grind wall. It was the decision of FD, not the players.

 

[CariadocThorne]

It is not some kind of natural law that the stuff has to be locked behind a grind wall. It was the decision of FD, not the players.

But it is the players who decide they want to have it.

 

[Stigbob]

It is not some kind of natural law that the stuff has to be locked behind a grind wall. It was the decision of FD, not the players.

The decision to try to repeatedly run through the wall instead of walking around the corner to the door however is definitely down to the players. It might take a bit longer but it hurts less and the gardens nice.

 

[Maymo]

I think FD are acutely aware of how little meaningful content ED actually offers.

By hiding features behind repetitive/boring tasks (material/guardian tech/engineers/navy ranks) they can draw out a players experience for longer even if it’s not a particularly enjoyable one.

Guardian ruins are a good example of this, they created something interesting to find and explore......but to collect the materials required for blueprints I had to relog and run around them so many times I practically puked in frustration. Thus, I never want to see one ever again, the mystique of visiting an alien ruin has been burned out of me...

Look how fast FD jumped on the recent wing delivery missions. It didn’t matter that many players were enjoying themselves together, FD can’t afford to remove the credit grind because increasing your credit balance and buying the next ship is 50% of the games ‘content’...

They put drops of precious commodities on planet surfaces but give you no means of getting those commodities efficiently onto your ship so you can go and sell them. Your ship lands several km away and you have to transport them 2 at a time.

It’s just bizarre. How can a developer be so out of touch with their own product? I honestly think they’re bored of it, I just don’t smell any passion.

Sometimes it feels like they created the ultimate playground but forgot to add the toys so people could have fun. Over time Ive come to just accept it like many others here, but that doesn’t mean it’s right...

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

Lots of games have grind and people are quite happy doing it. Looter shooters and Diablo style games are a prime example. What they do is keep the player engaged so you never really feel it.

Elite's biggest problem is that the man behind the curtain is constantly exposed. The endless battle against RNG and lack of player agency makes you feel the grind if you actually want to accomplish anything.

 

[galahad2069]

The decision to try to repeatedly run through the wall instead of walking around the corner to the door however is definitely down to the players. It might take a bit longer but it hurts less and the gardens nice.

If you have to do the exact same utterly boring thing (like the guardian base scanning) 100 times to unlock something, then it doesn't matter whether you choose to do it 50 times a day to get the reward in 2 days or once a day to get it in 100 days, the grind is the same. The only difference is that if you do it the round-the-corner way, it will take much longer to be able to grab the gadget you were after.

But it is the players who decide they want to have it.

Why wouldn't they want to have some cool stuff?

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

No, it isn't. You are choosing that. The game does not require progression at all. If you choose objectives which require grinding, that's your choice, the game didn't force you.

Erm yes it is?

The game literally never lets you forget it either. Rebuy system vs average in-game earnings are not equal or well measured in the least.

You are expected to do hundred of hours jus to get a decent ship and modules, then the hundreds of engineering hours spent grinding materials. (JUst to be slightly competative with others)

That is a utterly terrible argument mate. There wouldnt be such massive volumes of posts about the grind, if they had a choice as to make it not feel grindy, but even the missions are just carbon copies with no flair or idividual touches, hence a grind, doing the same thing repeatedly waiting for the possible potential outcome to show itself.

Thats a grind.

 

[Sylveria]

Grinding isn't the players fault, but it is the players choice.

Most succinct answer yet.

I'd love to have a nice Ferrari 360 Spider.

In order to get one, I'd have to put in X amount of effort for Y amount of pay for years.

I think it should just be simply delivered to my doorstep, else it be a "grind".

 

[V'larr]

I'm leery of where the responses to the OP are going in this thread....

I think I'm on board with the idea that, if the game is a grind, it's not really the player's fault that they then grind when playing the game. That's kinda...to be expected: you play what you are presented with.

I do think that the amount of "repetitive" quantity in the game could be reduced in favor of quality...I can't think of the right word for it, encounters? Experiences? Something along those lines.

I think that Fdev, being perhaps not feeling the most experienced in the world, takes far too much stock in looking at games like Warframe and trying to emulate what they see going on there, instead of taking bold strides of their own to do their own, different thing.

I honestly see a lot of parallels between Engineering and modding in Warframe, and the means by which one gets access to all the things you need to mod your weapons in Warframe - it's EXTREMELY grindy, very repetitive, and involves a heck of a lot of RNG.

I guess, in that sense and if I'm right, it's remarkable that Fdev have reduced the RNG and, comparitively, the repetition-grind as much as they have...but for sure it could be much better.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Erm yes it is?

The game literally never lets you forget it either. Rebuy system vs average in-game earnings are not equal or well measured in the least.

You are expected to do hundred of hours jus to get a decent ship and modules, then the hundreds of engineering hours spent grinding materials. (JUst to be slightly competative with others)

That is a utterly terrible argument mate. There wouldnt be such massive volumes of posts about the grind, if they had a choice as to make it not feel grindy, but even the missions are just carbon copies with no flair or idividual touches, hence a grind, doing the same thing repeatedly waiting for the possible potential outcome to show itself.

Thats a grind.

However you and only you decide what's 'decent' means in this case. As you mention "to be slightly competitive", which again, is a decision of the player. No one has to be competitive about anything in ED, really. Only if you want get involved in direct meta PvP. Which is not again, game's decision to force you to do so. It is you.

'This game might be not for you' gets thrown a lot here, but Elite has always been this weird beast which many gamers have hard time to put grasp on. That's why it gathers so polarizing opinions. That's what games that are designed in very specific mind set do. People who tend to go outside that mind set find hard to connect with such games.

Which, again, is not anybody's fault. Neither game's, nor gamers. As I don't watch horror movies and I find them boring, and don't play MOBAs and find them total time wastes, some people find ED not really working to their liking. It is matter of taste and approach.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Most succinct answer yet.

I'd love to have a nice Ferrari 360 Spider.

In order to get one, I'd have to put in X amount of effort for Y amount of pay for years.

I think it should just be simply delivered to my doorstep, else it be a "grind".

There is an issue here that this player base seems to suffer cognitive dissonance with.

IT IS A GAME. Not reality.

We have our daily grinds already, it's called a job.

Very few people appriciate that this game is as much a second job as one that actually could pay for your fezza. It certainly demands a similar level of your time for the first year.

This issue is gating content behind stuff thats not engaging. Noone gives a toss about having to work for stuff in a game (fallout/syrim etc etc). But people do have a problem when that journey becomes senselessly repeating the same thing end over end all whilst seeing little to no progression via unintresting and uninspired gameplay loops > That is EXACTLY how to define a grind.

This community really needs to stop relating this to real life. How many things have been fudged due to that? Yep. From what i gathered this community actually VOTED FOR the ship timer .

It is a GAME. People do not what to come home from work, only to do a load more on thier virtual cmdrs. There s a limit to how far you can set the pegs and still have a playable game, ED is way out of whack with that.

"Did I ever tell you the definition of insanity? Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over, and expecting a different outcome.."

 

[Stigbob]

If you have to do the exact same utterly boring thing (like the guardian base scanning) 100 times to unlock something, then it doesn't matter whether you choose to do it 50 times a day to get the reward in 2 days or once a day to get it in 100 days, the grind is the same. The only difference is that if you do it the round-the-corner way, it will take much longer to be able to grab the gadget you were after.

You don't need to do the same thing there are alternatives and none of it is compulsory. The guardian stuff is less use for min-maxers than standard engineered gear so I don't see why they'd bother. None of it requires 100 repetitions either.

Completionists may be different, but again that's a choice.

I grabbed the mats I needed for a few upgrades, topped out storage on four or five common things I can now use for trade and found the final mats I needed to G5 plus experimental my challengers dirty drive in about a forty minute run this morning.

The run consisted of one FSD jump then landing at an engineer where I wanted to pin lightweight sensors, it was a detour I don't need to engineer my sensors I just think it's a useful blueprint to have pinned. I stopped at seven or eight USS's on the way in. Some distress calls from pirate transports under attack I got a load of transport specific components from them, proto radiolic alloys from one of the attackers. I fought two engineered pirates one of which had a phasing sequence beam, the other phasing pulse. They both dropped cool stuff. Some encoded emmissions. Just under a million in bounties.

I could have ignored it all and ground at doing one specific thing, but that sounds dreadful.

Why wouldn't they want to have some cool stuff?

Cool stuffs easy, it's a mistake to think you need coolest right now and grind till you burn out.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

There is an issue here that this player base seems to suffer cognitive dissonance with.

IT IS A GAME. Not reality.

We have our daily grinds already, it's called a job.

And ED tries to emulate fantasy escapism job....yes, fantasy, but still a job. That's how it always Elite has been. Sorry, but this ain't power fantasy. This is how it always been pitched.

Very few people appriciate that this game is as much a second job as one that actually could pay for your fezza. It certainly demands a similar level of your time for the first year.

There are lots of different ways how people relax. Sometimes space commander daily routine is very relaxing and interesting. Railroaded experiences really isn't.

This issue is gating content behind stuff thats not engaging. Noone gives a toss about having to work for stuff in a game (fallout/syrim etc etc). But people do have a problem when that journey becomes senselessly repeating the same thing end over end all whilst seeing little to no progression via unintresting and uninspired gameplay loops > That is EXACTLY how to define a grind.

Again, that's kinda thing with Elite, and if you didn't enjoy it, I am sure you won't enjoy it now.

This community really needs to stop relating this to real life. How many things have been fudged due to that? Yep. From what i gathered this community actually VOTED FOR the ship timer .

I guess community feels very different about ED as you do?

It is a GAME. People do not what to come home from work, only to do a load more on thier virtual cmdrs. There s a limit to how far you can set the pegs and still have a playable game, ED is way out of whack with that.

"Did I ever tell you the definition of insanity? Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over, and expecting a different outcome.."

It is a game sure, but it is obvious it is not one for you. So why you keep pondering on it?

p.s. look, I personally see that everybody wants ED to improve, but we are clearly talking about different paths there.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Correct, except for PvP. But even that is in no way required (PvP is totally optional) and I feel pity for everyone who is only interested in PvP and considers anything else a means to an end. I'm afraid these poor guys have to grind.

To put it bluntly, if I would be an avid PvPer I would certainly look out for another game.

That’s not even the case for PvP, as far as I’m concerned. I’ve participated in quite a few PvP competitions where “Stock Eagle” or something similar was an optional category, for those players who prefer to let skill, rather than one’s ability to endure grinding for 1337 equipment, determine the outcome of the contest.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

There are lots of different ways how people relax. Sometimes space commander daily routine is very relaxing and interesting. Railroaded experiences really isn't.


p.s. look, I personally see that everybody wants ED to improve, but we are clearly talking about different paths there.

Right for one, as I've said now, in numerous posts. I dont have a problem with working for stuff. Just with being made to do the same uninspired Sh*t on repeat for thousands of hours.

And where the hell did you get railroaded content from? Have you ever played an RPG? They typically require you to sink in time and effort (in an open world) to get good stuff, (As it should be) The major difference being, that its not vapid and just a carbon copy of every other bit of content but involves varied and interesting gameplay loops.

Progression in ED typically involves doing hundred of hours of LITERALLY THE SAME THING. And you don't want rail roaded content. smh.

My veiw is either make the money more accesible, or the RNGneering, at the end of the day, the only decent content in this game, is generated by the playerbase engaging one another in various activities. So the game needs players to survive, locking them out of the fun content with hundreds of hours of uninspired and dull repeating loops is not conducive to keeping the player base.

Modern competition for the gamers attention is very strong. ED might have a unique thing now, but it's not gonna be long before it seriously has to change to compete.

The tech is changing, the game has to somewhat change with the time, or like those thousands of old skool MMO's that used to be well popular, ED will stagnate and be quckly forgotten about.

 

[CariadocThorne]

Erm yes it is?

The game literally never lets you forget it either. Rebuy system vs average in-game earnings are not equal or well measured in the least.

You are expected to do hundred of hours jus to get a decent ship and modules, then the hundreds of engineering hours spent grinding materials. (JUst to be slightly competative with others)

That is a utterly terrible argument mate. There wouldnt be such massive volumes of posts about the grind, if they had a choice as to make it not feel grindy, but even the missions are just carbon copies with no flair or idividual touches, hence a grind, doing the same thing repeatedly waiting for the possible potential outcome to show itself.

Thats a grind.

Except you don't have to do ANY of that stuff.

You choose to.

I don't grind. Maybe around 25 hours grinding out of over 2000 hours playing. Yet I have never run out of rebuy cash, or even felt that doing so was a remote possibility. And I've paid out for a lot of rebuys. I also have a fully G5 engineered Krait (was a Python until recently).

What do you even mean by "competitive"?

Because there is not competition in 90% of the game, so it doesn't matter if somebody elses ship is half a percent more efficient at something than yours is.

If you are talking about ranking highly for CG's, then you are literally complaining that you have to grind to be able to grind harder. That is 100% on you.

If you are talking about PvP, then no you don't. player skill makes 80% of the difference, not ship. A good player in a small ship will beat a bad player in a corvette. You can PvP effectively in a Viper with G3 engineering if you are good, and in a courier or Vulture even if you aren't the best pilot around. Sure, you won'y win every fight, but you won't in a Corvette either

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Modern competition for the gamers attention is very strong. ED might have a unique thing now, but it's not gonna be long before it seriously has to change to compete.

That's some strong urban legend people tend to tell themselves because they don't like things like they are and just can't move on. Don't be such people. There's lot of experiences to have besides ED in your life and you really don't need to hang upon this. If you feel game is not right for you, just move on.

It is almost same with completinionists and min maxers. They feel they need to 'steer' games in direction they can, well, complete them. And when they face one which has nothing to do with their approach they are muffled and confused. And somehow it is all everybody's elses fault and everybody should serve their whims.

Not really.

 

[Sylveria]

ED might have a unique thing now, but it's not gonna be long before it seriously has to change to compete.

Wait, where have I heard this one before?

Oh that's right- about 4 years ago with Star Citizen...

ED doesn't need to compete. It does just fine- and if players decide to "go elsewhere", it actually reduces the resources required to continue to "service" them.

If this were a subscription game, you might have a point... but it's not. It doesn't rely on massive influxes of players, it simply relies on sales of a product "as is".