How to solve the Combat Logging Problem

[Stealthie]

But we'll never find that put as long as the only method we use is punish, and since punish doesn't seem to be working it's time to change our approach.

I wasn't aware the game did punish people for CLing.

Simple fact is, the issue of Combat Logging is really more about PvPers trying to dream excuses to punish those who upset them while people who aren't interested in PvP try to dream up reasons why the PvPers' ideas won't work.

Meanwhile, FDev just continue to ignore it because it isn't really a big problem and there's no way of fixing it anyway.

 

[varonica]

I wasn't aware the game did punish people for CLing.

It doesn't at the moment, and the reason for that is that any idea put forward for punishing people for CL'ing have obvious exploitable flaws that can be used to cause huge problems for other players, this is probably the reason why FDEV have hesitated to do the same, because they can't think of a way to do it without causing issues for innocent players.

So how about instead of every anti-combat logging proposal running down the inevitable rabbit hole of punishment we start thinking of ways to reduce combat logging by removing or fixing the mechanics that make combat logging so desirable.

I tend to agree it's not a big problem for most people, but there are some who think it is and they make a lot of noise.

 

[Stealthie]

So how about instead of every anti-combat logging proposal running down the inevitable rabbit hole of punishment we start thinking of ways to reduce combat logging by removing or fixing the mechanics that make combat logging so desirable.

Not sure I understand.

Combat, by it's very nature, is punitive. Your ship gets destroyed. You lose stuff.
I don't really see any way you could address CLing in a way that didn't upset anybody without making combat completely futile.

You're suggesting that, perhaps, after combat the "winner" gets to see a pretty explosion and the "loser" gets de-instanced and their ship just reappears in a different instance so they can carry on as they were.

That might, superficially, seem okay for the majority of frivolous PvP but it's no use to the people who are trying to engage in meaningful combat for a superpower, or a faction, or to influence the outcome of a CG or whatever.

You can't remove the incentive to CL without removing consequences from combat and you can't remove the consequences from combat without making it utterly futile.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

See, this is the fundamental problem with trying to think up solutions to combat-logging; anything that might actually work is capable of being weaponised.

In this case, a bunch of gankers can show up at, say, a CG, an engineer, Eravate or Shinrata, force-disconnect everybody in the instance and then, Yay! They've got a bunch of people who're stuck in Open for the next hour.

We've talked about weaponising my suggestion before, and while I agree it's a possibility, firstly, you've got to force disconnect them while they're in combat/danger, you can't just fly to the station or sit in supercruise and flick the switch.

Secondly, I'd imagine that sort of manipulation of the game is definitely breaking the EULA, and would hopefully being the full force of FDs (shadow) ban hammer down on the players doing it.
Heck, I'd consider that hacking and punish it with account suspension, or eventually deletion. That sort of thing must be quite easy to track from FDs end. (total guess)

Off topic, but any traffic shaping or manipulation should be considered hacking and bring severe punishment.

 

[Stealthie]

I'd imagine that sort of manipulation of the game is definitely breaking the EULA, and would hopefully being the full force of FDs (shadow) ban hammer down on the players doing it.
Heck, I'd consider that hacking and punish it with account suspension, or eventually deletion. That sort of thing must be quite easy to track from FDs end. (total guess)

Well, that's the thing, innit?

The way things are now, it's the targets of PvP who'd have something to gain by using P2P manipulation tools to cheat and getting attacked happens rarely enough that we probably don't bother considering whether cheating would be useful.

Once you create some penalty for CLing, however, it'd be PvPers who'd have something to gain by cheating.
You're talking about a group of people who often already get their jollies by generating salt.
Do you think they're likely to take advantage of something that gives them the opportunity to generate more salt?
I'm afraid I do.

FWIW, I tend to be wilfully ignorant when it comes to this stuff.
Last time there was a big fuss about CLing, though, I took it upon myself to try and find out what P2P manipulation actually involved.
I, literally, just typed "something obvious" (which I'm not going to repeat here) into google, got a link to a reddit thread which discussed the tools used and downloaded one.
The tool looked a bit like a torrent client and displayed a list of IP addresses and stuff about the data being sent to and received from each of them.

I then fired up a multiplayer car racing game I have, joined a race and then alt-tabbed out of the game to try doing stuff like throttling, suspending and blocking data to various IPs and the results were immediately apparent.
I then fired up ED, had a look at the software and it was performing in exactly the same way as it did in the racing game so I have no reason to believe that it wouldn't provide the same results it did in the racing game.
Course, I didn't actually try doing anything with it in ED cos that'd be a bad thing.


Point is, the tools are available and easy to use but currently ED relies on a delicate balance; PvEers don't get attacked often enough to consider using P2P manipulation tools to cheat and PvPers don't gain any advantage by using those tools either.
Change that balance (in either direction) and you create an incentive for one group or the other to consider seeking out tools that might allow them to cheat.

 

[Kaocraft]

So how about instead of every anti-combat logging proposal running down the inevitable rabbit hole of punishment we start thinking of ways to reduce combat logging by removing or fixing the mechanics that make combat logging so desirable.

Can we start with a "hey Combat logging's not cool please don't do that" message that pops up in-game when the client or server detects what it thinks might be a Combat Log? Is this too much to ask?

 

[Northpin]

Meanwhile, FDev just continue to ignore it because it isn't really a big problem and there's no way of fixing it anyway.

FDev is ignoring it because it's a non-issue. You can't punish someone for quitting the game.
I mean, really? It's supposed to be entertainment, not a 9-to-5 job where you get shafted if you leave at 4.

Granted, if someone is turning this mechanic into a harassment then yea - it may and should be punishable according to the rules in CoC, but you cannot put a rule in that is saying "quitting the game is cheating and is a punishable offense".

 

[Kaocraft]

FDev is ignoring it because it's a non-issue. You can't punish someone for quitting the game.
I mean, really? It's supposed to be entertainment, not a 9-to-5 job where you get shafted if you leave at 4.

Granted, if someone is turning this mechanic into a harassment then yea - it may and should be punishable according to the rules in CoC, but you cannot put a rule in that is saying "quitting the game is cheating and is a punishable offense".

You're just plain wrong about it being a non-issue. It's an issue if people think it's an issue, which plenty of people do. It's a pervasive problem with online games, something other developers have implemented solutions to deal with, and it's something Frontier should take a look at if they want to hold onto their players. It annoys people, and it circumvents/delegitimizes a huge part of the game's design. It makes the entire game world a lot more fake, boring, and inconsequential, and it completely wrecks any sense of stakes which are needed to foster an online community.

Now, I don't necessarily think that punishment is the only way to solve a problem like this, nor do I think that any given solution has to be 100% flawlessly effective, but I would like to see some movement towards improving the situation such that CLing is not the automatic default "smartest choice" in any given player-player encounter. This has nothing to do with making the game into a 9-to-5 job or any other rhetorical dodge; if you want to get into that you can take it up with the realtime deadline mission givers and the administration at Jacques Station, or if you're in the bubble please speak to the complaints office at Hutton Orbital. Tech Brokers at Attilius Orbital in CD-43 11917 are also standing by to take your calls.

 

[varonica]

It annoys people,

There are a lot of things that annoy people, one player the other day was demanding that the name of a station be changed because if you spelled in backwards it became something "offensive" and it annoyed him. Everyone has an opinion on what's annoying, not all opinions are equal, that's something we have to learn to live with, we can't pander to every whim in the game. The Dev's get the final say, if they are happy the way it is that's to bad for people who get annoyed.

 

[Misty_Dark]

You're just plain wrong about it being a non-issue. It's an issue if people think it's an issue, which plenty of people do. It's a pervasive problem with online games, something other developers have implemented solutions to deal with, and it's something Frontier should take a look at if they want to hold onto their players. It annoys people, and it circumvents/delegitimizes a huge part of the game's design. It makes the entire game world a lot more fake, boring, and inconsequential, and it completely wrecks any sense of stakes which are needed to foster an online community.

Who does this annoy? and why?

 

[Brrokk]

FDev is ignoring it because it's a non-issue. You can't punish someone for quitting the game.
I mean, really? It's supposed to be entertainment, not a 9-to-5 job where you get shafted if you leave at 4.

Granted, if someone is turning this mechanic into a harassment then yea - it may and should be punishable according to the rules in CoC, but you cannot put a rule in that is saying "quitting the game is cheating and is a punishable offense".

It's a non-issue. In over 2 years' play I've never combat logged and never seen anyone combat log.

If anyone did combat log away from me I would be sooo pleased with my prowess.

 

[Factabulous]

This thread does make me wonder if the "how can I launch the game with one click" threads are from combat loggers - I can't think of many reasons* that would make you complain about startup, except if you pull the plug a lot. I'll have to ask why they want it next time they ask

* Maybe uss farming

 

[Kaocraft]

There are a lot of things that annoy people, one player the other day was demanding that the name of a station be changed because if you spelled in backwards it became something "offensive" and it annoyed him. Everyone has an opinion on what's annoying, not all opinions are equal, that's something we have to learn to live with, we can't pander to every whim in the game. The Dev's get the final say, if they are happy the way it is that's to bad for people who get annoyed.

All true but also irrelevant to the discussion. "There are a lot of things that annoy people" isn't much of a rejoinder to any complaint. This thread is about solving, or at least improving, a problem. If you don't think the problem is a problem, you can just not talk about it. There's no need to share your opinion that opinions are opinions; we know. If you actively want the problem to NOT be solved, then feel free to share why you think the status quo is good and best, and how the game would be made worse if people didn't Combat Log. Otherwise, I don't see why anyone should be swayed by "the Dev's get the final say." Yeah we know. We've also noticed that the Devs keep changing things, sometimes in response to feedback from the player base, sometimes only after a lot of feedback.

 

[aRJay]

Redacted

 

[Schmack]

The best way to curb combat logging is to remove mass lock and give shorter FSD spool up times. If the commander has the option to run instead of stick around and die, maybe running would be a good option. If they have to out pace the attacker or attackers, that could be difficult. Giving them the ability to flee at least gives some closure to the ordeal.

 

[Schmack]

Why do you guys think there's a problem that needs to be solved?

Because without financial repercussion to engagements there's no risk. Perhaps repairs should be more expensive.

 

[Florenus]

Because without financial repercussion to engagements there's no risk. Perhaps repairs should be more expensive.

That's something completely different than combat logging "problem".
It's only a problem for people who want to force other players to fight. It's very far from this game design philosophy, where the game is mainly PvE experience with option to share that experience with other people.
PvP is also an option, if people are interested, but since you can play this game SOLO and avoid meeting other players completely, PvP obviously was never a focus for this game (and that's great in my opinion). Quite the contrary, It was made in such a way to help people avoid PvP if they don't want it.
Apart from Powerplay, player has no in-game interest in attacking other players, and since those other players can achieve their goals playing Solo, combat logging is only slightly irritating to attacking player, without any other consequence.

In other words: if someone combat logs, he either doesn't want to play with you, or is a poor sport - in both cases you do better just moving on, looking for different, more willing PvP partners.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

We've had many of these threads, and over the years people have looked to FD to solve the problem, and it hasn't happened.

Some people took the route of naming and shaming with a certain subreddit, which also has been about as effective as a chocolate fireguard.

There isn't much you can do against dedicated combat loggers, they will continue to do it as they please.

However, rather than go into a blind rage over it when it happens (after all, its just a game, and you don't lose anything really). Reach out to the person who combat logged. Send them a friend request, and nicely explain to them about modes, the menu timer, FD's policy, about why its considered being a bad sport to combat log. Suggest to them they might want to play in PG or solo if they don't want to experience attacks from other players.

Sure, some will poo poo you. Some will laugh and tell you they can do what they want. Many will probably not respond to your contact request. But a few you might get through to and listen.

 

[Schmack]

That's something completely different than combat logging "problem".
It's only a problem for people who want to force other players to fight. It's very far from this game design philosophy, where the game is mainly PvE experience with option to share that experience with other people.
PvP is also an option, if people are interested, but since you can play this game SOLO and avoid meeting other players completely, PvP obviously was never a focus for this game (and that's great in my opinion). Quite the contrary, It was made in such a way to help people avoid PvP if they don't want it.
Apart from Powerplay, player has no in-game interest in attacking other players, and since those other players can achieve their goals playing Solo, combat logging is only slightly irritating to attacking player, without any other consequence.

In other words: if someone combat logs, he either doesn't want to play with you, or is a poor sport - in both cases you do better just moving on, looking for different, more willing PvP partners.

Sure, so you don't think combat logging is a problem. Why are you responding to a thread about combat logging instead of just moving on? Honest question. The reason you give is probably in the general spirit as those wanting to solve the issue and not just say "move on".

 

[Schmack]

We've had many of these threads, and over the years people have looked to FD to solve the problem, and it hasn't happened.

Some people took the route of naming and shaming with a certain subreddit, which also has been about as effective as a chocolate fireguard.

There isn't much you can do against dedicated combat loggers, they will continue to do it as they please.

However, rather than go into a blind rage over it when it happens (after all, its just a game, and you don't lose anything really). Reach out to the person who combat logged. Send them a friend request, and nicely explain to them about modes, the menu timer, FD's policy, about why its considered being a bad sport to combat log. Suggest to them they might want to play in PG or solo if they don't want to experience attacks from other players.

Sure, some will poo poo you. Some will laugh and tell you they can do what they want. Many will probably not respond to your contact request. But a few you might get through to and listen.

You have good comments, no doubt, but do you honestly expect that people will adopt the stance of mentor to random players all over the world, as if they aren't there to play the game, only to teach others the rules? I don't see that happening. It's like swatting flies outside, near a fruit stand. You're not going to thin them out.