New upgrade System - "Your time is valueable"- is a pure grind and waste of everyones time

[Funny]

The material more or less fixes the grind for less rare mats, so that’s not really an issue, but I feel like at the very least we should have a known maximum number of upgrades to max an upgrade. This would mean a not-too-high absolute maximum number of rolls - just so we know what to expect going in.
And I feel like, in addition to pinned blueprints, we should be able to upgrade our currently installed modules anywhere with outfitting, just like with pinned blueprints. Just to reduce the time spent flying - you could sit at a material broker and then collect as many mats as you needed on the fly.

 

[EUS]

To recap, there's a material broker to help you with the tedium of fighting the RNG for materials, so that you can quickly go from 1-5, then roll some g5 for your module.
Everyone who's happy with the incoming changes, plus the game designer says it'll be quick to go to g5, don't you worry!!!1!

So then what the hell is the point of g1-4?
Get rid of them, FD has admitted they're useless, they wouldn't need to try to placate us with statements of it'll take less time, etc, etc otherwise.
Show up to engie with some mats.
They decide how good of an upgrade you can get with mats on hand.
Rare mats make better upgrades.
None of this leveling malarkey that requires a reset to 1.

 

[Mangal Oemie]

The engineer changes are great, I'm sick to death of the entitled forum warriors who want the best ships without putting any effort in. The way I see it, is that everyone will be on a level playing field instead of praying to RNGejus for a god roll. Which makes the game unbalanced and unfair, having abilities on the basis of chance is an abomination in a game like this.

And this is where you misunderstand the anger and frustration.

Because, in fact, the forum warriors who wanted their god rolls got their wish. No more 100s or 1000s of rolls, 20 will do.

But everybody else, everybody who was cool with a mid-level G5? They, the vast majority of the player base, are the ones that will now need to spend 3-4 times the time to engineer to the level they can do today.

 

[JonathanBurnage]

THIS ^ Is the HUGE disconnect I have never been able to understand. How is rolling 1000 times to get an overspec better than rolling 30 times for nearly the same thing?

You're right - it's not. But let me put it another way - how is rolling 30 times for a decent result better than rolling 5 times for nearly the same thing?

The new system is great for min/maxers, because the number of rolls is greatly reduced (as you point out). But for everyone else, the number of rolls goes up substantially, along with the material-gathering needed to make them.

 

[CMDR-AD]

From what I've seen, I think this will make Engineering far more accessible for players I know.

Yes, for CMDRs trying to get a maxed out Engineering build, it'll probably be a longer road when starting from scratch.

But for CMDRs who don't have anywhere near the materials to do 20 G5 rolls, or even access to many of the deeper locked Engineers, and who will actually be able to enjoy some benefits with some of the quite useful G1 to G3 Blueprints available from the initial Engineers they can access... I can't see how these changes will be anything but an improvement. They can make use of what materials they do already have (and trade for a few they don't have), with zero of their materials (which are time investment) being wasted, and sometimes wasted repeatedly. And couple this with now being able to do local Engineering work done, away from the Engineer bases... Yes. A far, far more approachable design (again, based on the other players I know).

I'll test it Thursday and see. Looking forward to the beta.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Yeah, I agree, absolutely terrible, screws over new players mostly. Lot of us established players have already G5 modifications and don't need to go trough G1 -> G4 anymore, but for new modules it's terrible.
Also it's not worth to change from one mod to another anymore, if you have G5 overcharged weapons and you want to change to G5 long range you are better of buying a new set of multi cannons and start form the beginning again, spending hundred of materials in the process.

New players - unless they are PvP inklings pulled in for PvP meat - don't care about G5. It is not a G5 shop, never have been and frankly it is own FD fault they allowed that assumption to take hold in first place.

 

[Funny]

Where can we see the data you used for that conclusion? Or are you talking out of your before actually trying it?

Until people actually play the game and can draw some conclusions on how all changes combined make it better / worse, you're just letting your do the talking.

No, they’re objectively right if they only ever went for 3-5 rolls in the current system to get a decent version of the basic benefits. For min/maxers this is absolutely amazing, but my ships I fly for fun occasionally will now be very annoying to upgrade (no more “simply a single lightweight mod) etc.

Edit: A solution would be to allow you to apply an upgrade you unlocked once at max grade to any other individual module in the future, though for 2x the cost at the first application in the future. While still technically worse than the current system for singular upgrades, it’ll still “feel” fine, and a whole lot better than having to click 12 times just to get into the area you want.
I feel like that would be a decent compromise - my issue isn’t necessarily the time spent gathering the mats, after all, it’s just the ridiculous amount of management that has to go into getting all the different types of mats.

Well, in addition to that it’d be nice that have a guaranted maximum amount of rolls until you can go to the next rank and a maximum amount of rolls until you get a rank maxed. I don’t care how much mats that’ll cost, simply having that in place will make this game feel a whole lot better.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

From what I've seen, I think this will make Engineering far more accessible for players I know.

Yes, for CMDRs trying to get a maxed out Engineering build, it'll probably be a longer road when starting from scratch.

But for CMDRs who don't have anywhere near the materials to do 20 G5 rolls, or even access to many of the deeper locked Engineers, and who will actually be able to enjoy some benefits with some of the quite useful G1 to G3 Blueprints available from the initial Engineers they can access... I can't see how these changes will be anything but an improvement. That can make use of what materials they have (and trade for a few they don't have), with zero of their materials (which are time investment) being wasted, and sometimes wasted repeatedly. And couple this with now being able to do local Engineering work done, away from the Engineer bases... Yes. A far, far more approachable design (again, based on the other players I know).

I'll test it Thursday and see. Looking forward to the beta.

This.

It is not about PvP G5 shop. It is about making sane progression system of upgrades.

 

[GG7]

The engineer changes are great, I'm sick to death of the entitled forum warriors who want the best ships without putting any effort in. The way I see it, is that everyone will be on a level playing field instead of praying to RNGejus for a god roll. Which makes the game unbalanced and unfair, having abilities on the basis of chance is an abomination in a game like this.

I agree 100%. I've G5 engineered my entire fleet of 12 ships along with duplicate modules in storage. THOUSANDS of rolls since the feature was first introduced.

I have ZERO problem with these changes. I plan to keep everything I have now, and over time compare the results I get when engineering up the 3 Chieftains I plan on buying. I'm not going to start griping about a grind until their is definitive proof that there is one.

I seriously doubt it will be anywhere close to the level of that grind with the current system. That includes the current 1000 unit max limit on ALL Material and Data storage, which so often cuts your sessions short when you run out of something.

Some of these whiners need to find an AI algorithm that can play their video games for them. They obviously can't be bothered.

 

[Red Anders]

I also highly disagree with your "20 rolls = godroll" assessment. I mean take a google, some people take hundreds and are still unhappy with the result.

I think by 'god rolls are now just 20 rolls away' he meant 'now' as under this new system, not actually 'now' in the live game.

Although I do have a pair of class 1 railguns which generate less heat combined than a single non-engineered one and they took less than 20 rolls for the pair. Maybe I'm just lucky

 

[bigity]

Where can we see the data you used for that conclusion? Or are you talking out of your before actually trying it?

Until people actually play the game and can draw some conclusions on how all changes combined make it better / worse, you're just letting your do the talking.

It's very simple.

Current system - once you have unlocked all grades and engineers.

1) Collect however many G5 rolls you want to go for (most people are happy with a handful of rolls)
2) Go to engineer, roll - done (optional - rebuy rank lost due to weapon experimental effects)

Beyond system - once you have unlocked all grades and engineers

1) Collect 6 rolls for G1, G2, G3, G4 equaling 24 mats that may or may not be more or less unique (depending on mod)
2) Collect your G5 rolls, and optional mats for desired experimental effects
3) Go to engineer, roll (no rebuy rank at least)

 

[CMDR Carbo]

I'll wait to pass judgement (I know, shocking) but the only thing I will say is it'd probably be better if that last ~10% of the grade just fills up to 100% rather than, from what I think I saw, continuing to increase by percentiles of the remaining percentiles.

It seems you can skip to the next grade before you hit 100%,which is good. So might as well just make it hit 100% at that point.

The amount how much the bar fills towards 100% is random. RNG.

 

[Winterwalker]

I'm not personally keen on removing god rolls and possible backward rolls too .. never have been (always liked engineering but everyone complaining!). I think materials broker will change things up quite a lot and also think the point of playing the game is, playing the game so personally settle for G3 's and high wake if it gets sticky!

 

[xondk]

If you watched the stream of today you saw that they showed off the new system.To make things short.
Forcing us to roll a module 5 times to "complete" rank 1 to progess further to rank 2 is just a waste of time and material as it is waste of time finding all those material.
The materials required to go through 2,3 and 4 to finally roll 5 is such a huge new time sink that you will probably have to spend all your time on RNG jesus in order to aquire the tidious bits for the grades noone wants and uses.
They even adressed it quickly and said thats not a new grind. LIES, Do you even play your own game?.

Solutions to this is

1.) Remove the barrier and let us roll staight to G5 from 0
2.) Remove the utter clutter of different Materials. Create a CLEAR and CONSISTENT way of aquiring Materials.

Well they do not want it to be a case of.

"CLICK HERE TO GET UBERWEAPON" situation. As some players seem to want.

The 1->5 on each module progression I don't know about if progressing through the ranks is easier and gives more meaningful stuff now, which it seems to be, and is significantly less RNG then it doesn't seem so bad.

They said it doesn't take too long, but they didn't show it, is the main issue it seems.

As for what was said is a waste of everyones time. Stop....saying that please.

You are playing a game, you are entertaining yourself, you are PER definition, wasting your time, you are not doing anything productive when you play a game, you are entertaining yourself.
If you don't want to waste time:
1) go do something productive rather then sitting around entertaining yourself.
2) stop getting upset and claiming others are 'wasting' your time, because it makes you look silly.

We haven't tried the changes yes, maybe they will indeed work out better then before, who knows, I cannot count the amount of times people have complained about bad rolls due to the RNG of engineers, now the RNG is gone, but replaced with something that may require more time.

but as I see it, this change allows people to simply do what they do, gather the materials and such they do find and get trade them in to something more useful.

Heck combined with the fact that bounties and such are ship based, this seems to encourage people to have more then one ship, store, shift around modules and such?

Add that we need to look at all these things combined, and combined it seems better then before, less rng steady progress. and lets not forget special effects, I've had madly bad luck with the RNG on those..

Will have to wait and see, but yeah...

 

[JonathanBurnage]

From what I've seen, I think this will make Engineering far more accessible for players I know.

Yes, for CMDRs trying to get a maxed out Engineering build, it'll probably be a longer road when starting from scratch.

But for CMDRs who don't have anywhere near the materials to do 20 G5 rolls, or even access to many of the deeper locked Engineers, and who will actually be able to enjoy some benefits with some of the quite useful G1 to G3 Blueprints available from the initial Engineers they can access... I can't see how these changes will be anything but an improvement. That can make use of what materials they have (and trade for a few they don't have), with zero of their materials (which are time investment) being wasted, and sometimes wasted repeatedly. And couple this with now being able to do local Engineering work done, away from the Engineer bases... Yes. A far, far more approachable design (again, based on the other players I know).

I'll test it Thursday and see. Looking forward to the beta.

I'm afraid you've got it completely the wrong way around. If you are trying to max your ship, the new system is brilliant. You speak of 20 G5 rolls like it is a lot. People have sunk hundreds of G5 rolls into a single module. Now they don't have to. In contrast, casual players will have to waste far more time grinding to get even a G3 result. Yes there are good things - continual improvement, materials broker - but the G1-5 grind is just daft.

 

[GG7]

You're right - it's not. But let me put it another way - how is rolling 30 times for a decent result better than rolling 5 times for nearly the same thing?

The new system is great for min/maxers, because the number of rolls is greatly reduced (as you point out). But for everyone else, the number of rolls goes up substantially, along with the material-gathering needed to make them.

You have nothing to base that on since none of us have used the new system yet.

Those 5 rolls you refer to in the current system actually give you ZERO guarantees that they will yield an acceptable result. Based on my experience with the current system, your chances are far higher that you will actually go backwards and get a worse roll than the upgrade you started with. Which only uses up valuable mats for absolutely NO GAIN whatsoever.

So... Your point makes no sense based on the reality of the current system. In my experience, its more like 50 rolls, not 5.

Plus, the massive increase in mat and data storage will make a HUGE difference in how many rolls you can do per session. No more dumping mats constantly that you later find you need for a new upgrade path.

If its too much work for you under the new system, then keep the stuff you have now and move on.

"Perceived" grind removed.

 

[CMDR Carbo]

New players - unless they are PvP inklings pulled in for PvP meat - don't care about G5. It is not a G5 shop, never have been and frankly it is own FD fault they allowed that assumption to take hold in first place.

Yeah, new players never want to engineer to G5.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever read on this forum.

 

[Shadowdancer]

2. its called critizism on the obvious lie of not introducing a new grind and solutions to it.

It's actually "calling people liars" (impolite, and maybe legally more?), "exposing a complete misunderstanding of stochastic processes" (failing basic maths), and "ignorance of what the changes are supposed to accomplish" (failing to read or listen to anything that was said about the intentions), founded on watching someone click around the engineering screen for a single module for a few minutes. I'm looking forward to you posting comprehensive overviews of how long it took you to engineer a ship to a given level during the beta, and actually criticising based on that experience in a constructive way. Then, maybe, I will reconsider my pretty low opinion on your original post.

 

[Funny]

You have nothing to base that on since none of us have used the new system yet.

Those 5 rolls you refer to give you NO guarantee that they will yield an acceptable result. Based on my experience with the current system, your chances are far higher that you will actually go backwards and get a worse roll than the upgrade you started with. Which only uses up valuable mats for absolutely NO GAIN whatsoever.

So... Your point makes no sense based on the reality of the current system. In my experience, its more like 50 rolls, not 5.

Well... it’s still 13 vs 3 on average. So still less optimal. Though I know a lot of instances in which I really just take the first roll I get on g5, unless it really more or less is the lowest possible roll in which case I go until ai’m above average. Thougheven then not always (talking about things like lightweight mods)

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

It's very simple.

Current system - once you have unlocked all grades and engineers.

1) Collect however many G5 rolls you want to go for (most people are happy with a handful of rolls)
2) Go to engineer, roll - done (optional - rebuy rank lost due to weapon experimental effects)

Beyond system - once you have unlocked all grades and engineers

1) Collect 6 rolls for G1, G2, G3, G4 equaling 24 mats that may or may not be more or less unique (depending on mod)
2) Collect your G5 rolls, and optional mats for desired experimental effects
3) Go to engineer, roll (no rebuy rank at least)

So it makes about progression, and less about getting G5.

Why it is a bad thing?