General Overhauling Engineering: A Family's Request for a Streamlined Upgrade System

I thought the Corvette was the best combat ship ever once I got it. Sure thing, it's nearly unkillable in a RES and deletes pirate lord 'Condas in half a minute.

Then there was a certain CG involving a certain CEO of a certain ship manufacturer who went full John Galt and needed to be reminded of the stark realities of the world. During that my fully grade-5 "meta" 'Vette met someone in and FDL in a CZ and the stark realities were also reminded to me: a ship does not fly itself and firepower means jack all if you can't get a gun solution.

Ditched the "unkillable" 'Vette sometime after because it's a boring brick that doesn't encourage learning good piloting. It's much more rewarding to take a non-meta ship and prevail against all odds.
Choosing the right loadout and setup for a ship, I think, is the better answer to that. FDLs are "meta" because they can outmaneuver and therefore dictate the flow of battle against anything else, so unless you resort to reverski in a Corvette and have a weapon setup with that in mind, that outcome is pretty pre-ordained.

Chieftain is a lot more fun if you want maneuverability to be an edge. "Meta" is not a curse word, being as effective as possible is natural and doesn't have to be correlated with limiting your creativity in the slightest - but you do have to be willing to look at things as they are & peel back the onion layers behind certain game mechanics.
 
Lei Cheung's requirement is I think one of the most interesting ones - if you're following a step-by-step unlock guide or powerlevelling a new alt you'll almost certainly run into it. If you're just wandering around doing stuff as an uninformed beginner you'll probably get to 50 long before you even hear the name Lei Cheung.

Lori's is just weird - by far the most time-consuming unlock in the game, for precisely one new set of blueprints that isn't available from another (non-Colonia) engineer and isn't completely pointless: G3 rather than G1 SCBs. And, admittedly, if you're not at least Dangerous in combat, you won't be getting any use out of that upgrade anyway, but still.
Well, when it doesn't just bug out and give players instant access to those engineers :p One of the longstanding bugs I think most players more easily accept as being "it just is this way" about the game, for some reason they seem to not mind having one barrier to entry lowered a bit!
 
... engineer a Courier for Bounty Hunting!

Of course I'm not biased!
I prefer my 887 m/s bubble shuttle that can also jump over 50 ly at a time - gotta go fast and all that; the Courier's the only ship that can both reach its highest speed cap and still have such a high jump range.
 
As I said- people completely ignore it, even if I show it, so I feel no point in doing similar tests for more scenarios.
If you want to add something outside "engi bad, gatekeeping, you HAVE TO grind, because benefits are bigga"- do similar tests. I'm waiting, unless you are on of people, which are able to only complaining, how difficult is everything, is you havent ship better 3/4 times than enemy ;)
Also, as I said- I did lr for EASIER MATH.
No faloff damage- no need in doing crazy math like "it was 800m for 2s, 900 for 3,1s and 5s with 1000m distance". Everything is straight and simple. 20 dps is 20 dps at 100 metres, and at 2000.
My goal was estimating +/- power of shields. Not time required to kill "if I target powerplant"
You try to complain at bad gatekeeping, but you cannout understand even this trivial test 🤦‍♂️
You can't ask me to go perform tests you yourself are refusing to do, not that it would prove anything that isn't already known. To be quite frank I don't know what you're even trying to prove.

For the record, I'm not advocating to "go grind", I'm stating it's sensible to minimize the unavoidable Engineering grind as much as possible, as opposed to extending it and hindering yourself & your freedom to customize & outfit your ships for an equally long duration of time. It would be most preferable if the game wasn't structured around said grind as a barrier to entry...or made it so necessary by it being such a massive power spike over vanilla ships.

My comment about LR1 vs efficient/overcharged was not in relation to your test, just general advice for the newer players in the thread trying to understand the merits of the available blueprints. LR1 is very inexpensive investment, but LR as a laser blueprint should not be mistaken as the most potentially effective choice.
 
Come to think of it, I'm not sure why CZs being more difficult to get kills in is an issue given that easier and more profitable combat scenarios exist.
I think it's an issue because it's a noob trap. New players see CZ missions all the time, but none of the nuances of why CZs are not generally preferable compared to pirate hunting at RES/CNBs are going to be apparent based on what the game tells new players. If not for hull hitpoint overinflation, it would likely be much more reasonable, but here we are.
 
I mean, that part is at least easy enough: pick up anything G4/G5, ignore the rest as it's more favorable to just trade down for them with the higher grade stuff.
I think we're talking about Odyssey mats used for upgrading suits and weapons/unlocks for engineers.

btw you can multi-quote to prevent reposting 10 times.
 
I think we're talking about Odyssey mats used for upgrading suits and weapons/unlocks for engineers.

btw you can multi-quote to prevent reposting 10 times.
It's not reposts, they're all different responses to different thoughts shared thus far. I've used multiquote in the past and the big wall of text in 1 post makes it a hassle for follow-up conversations to occur, so I save it for when it makes sense to use based on the topic.
 
It's not reposts, they're all different responses to different thoughts shared thus far. I've used multiquote in the past and the big wall of text in 1 post makes it a hassle for follow-up conversations to occur, so I save it for when it makes sense to use based on the topic.
That's what I meant when I said reposts. Not duplicates. No worries, just passing along advice someone passed along to me.
 
An interesting thought; on the one hand, keeping recharge rate as high as possible via charge enhanced would seem better to me for heat management to keep WEP full at all times, but with the whacky way heat mechanics work (see here https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/research-detailed-heat-mechanics.286628/page-8#post-6408594) ... maybe the higher heat capacity will help alleviate per-salvo spikes better.

https://wiki.antixenoinitiative.com/en/shipbuildtheory has lots of good info/builds around their website for that stuff
Did the test, it didn't seem to help that much with heat in practice--dumping the magazines even with staggered fire still caused overheating. The real kicker was reduced boost frequency. I usually fly pips 1-2-3, adjusting if needed, and with 2 pips to engines only got 3 boosts before the capacitor drying up and not charging up fast enough. Charge enhanced and ditching one shard for a thermal vent beam could be a solution. But today I got good results with charge enhanced PD, one modified plasma for exerting, 2 staggered gauss cannons for sniping and a class 2 thermal vent beam to keep things cool/strip the shield. Hardly even popped heatsinks. Might try the MKII tomorrow and add an extra plasma charger, though I think in a group fight that just leads to more panic shields (this tended to be a problem today with 3 or 4 other commanders in instance).

That weapon focused PD should be good for my mining Python, though, so it didn't go to waste.
 
Did the test, it didn't seem to help that much with heat in practice--dumping the magazines even with staggered fire still caused overheating. The real kicker was reduced boost frequency. I usually fly pips 1-2-3, adjusting if needed, and with 2 pips to engines only got 3 boosts before the capacitor drying up and not charging up fast enough. Charge enhanced and ditching one shard for a thermal vent beam could be a solution. But today I got good results with charge enhanced PD, one modified plasma for exerting, 2 staggered gauss cannons for sniping and a class 2 thermal vent beam to keep things cool/strip the shield. Hardly even popped heatsinks. Might try the MKII tomorrow and add an extra plasma charger, though I think in a group fight that just leads to more panic shields (this tended to be a problem today with 3 or 4 other commanders in instance).

That weapon focused PD should be good for my mining Python, though, so it didn't go to waste.
Yeah, normally I wouldn't recommend WEP focused for most things at all - it's a lot of trade-offs for very specific niche benefits. Definitely if you were relying on a class 1 beam for TV cooling, it's a lot less thermal load to invert than class 2.

Python's also got an oversized distro to begin with, so I don't know how much mileage you'll get there - r/eliteminers has the numbercrunching and data on that subject, fun reading for the mining-inclined
 
I gave the game a chance and spent time moderately engineering my FDL to see for myself, as some people said that “you don’t need engineering to enjoy the game.”

FSD: Long Range
Thrusters: Dirty Driving
Power Distributor: Charge-enhanced
Multi-cannon: Overcharged with incendiary
Beam lasers: Efficient with thermal vent

The difference between my stock FDL and a G3 to G4 engineered one is night and day. After a long day of responsibilities, I could finally log on and do an hour-long play session to relax and have a semblance of fun, but there were two problems.

-After testing this myself and from the perspective of a new player, the statement that “You don’t need engineering to play the game” is objectively false regarding combat.
-My experience gathering mats was highly unpleasant, to say the least, not because the process was grindy but because it was needlessly painful.

I refuse to do this to myself because I respect my time and will never engineer another ship, no matter the reward. I understand that some people say, “Just play the game, and you will gather mats passively.” No, that’s how YOU play the game, so please don’t tell me how I should enjoy something I paid for. All in all, I said this before, and I’ll repeat it. Engineering is why new players quit, and it will end this game. You don’t have to change anything just for our sake, but I wanted to give my two cents.

Dear Devs,

-Completely overhaul engineering if you want to retain new players
-Make mining relevant with ore processing and shipbuilding (we can already sell ships in carriers, so the framework is already there)
-We shouldn’t need 20 browser tabs open to play the game. Please implement a way to find information in-game.

I’m done with this game until, at the very least, engineering is fixed.

Thank you, and God bless.
 
Wow, your reply makes much sense, putting everything into perspective. I was curious why everyone is combative about this topic. Still, now I get that it’s personal to many veterans who put quite a lot of time and effort into a system that new players think shouldn’t have been implemented as such. This resistance stems from a sunk cost fallacy, but what do I know? O7
Elite as a franchise is decades old and had a dedicated core of hardcore old-school gamers. I remember playing roguelike games such as Moria under MS-DOS, where leveling took forever and if you die your character is just gone. And I'm not even old enough to have played the initial releases of the Elite franchise.

That being said, engineering as it stands is awful. I've done it myself and definitely would like to see some improvement to the system. I think some basic things like having unlimited materials storage, players able to trade/sell materials on their fleet carriers, and the ability to simply pay credits to engineer modules up to class 3 (but still requiring normal engineering for anything above that) would go a long way towards improving the current mechanic.

I will say this. It takes A LOT of effort to 100% engineer a ship, and that effort sets apart the truly elite players (especially in the PVP arena) from those that aren't quite that dedicated. And I'll be honest and call myself just an advanced player, I'm not one of those upper elites at all. (I have billions, a fleet of ~24 ships, most 80% engineered, only do PVP rarely, have never done Thargoid content)

To the family that originally posted, yes, engineering is awful but if you like flying ships in Elite don't give up. My progression (combat oriented) was Sidewinder->Adder->Cobra3->Asp Explorer->Vulture->Challenger->KraitMK3 and if I recall I didn't start engineering until I had the Krait. At that point I had made hundreds of millions doing bounty hunting. Didn't even realize engineering was a thing, or that it would make such a huge difference. That being said your own skills, teamwork, and knowing your limitations/ship make all the difference. I was very successful hunting bounties in my Adder... never even knew it was pretty crappy for combat. Trial, error, and working with what you've got.

And a little engineering goes a long way. I'd say figure out what types of weapons/ships you like first, get those ships A-rated, then get into engineering from there. Even class 2 or 3 engineering makes a big difference. I'd say focus on weapons first, for me it was multicannons. Nothing says you have to 100% engineer all your ships to class 5. I still haven't myself.
 
“You don’t need engineering to play the game” is objectively false regarding combat.
Skill issue.
In terms of understanding, fight, or both.
You "dont need" mean "you can do it without it", not "it doesnt make things easier".
I'm able to do everything outside high CZs/AX in unengi ship. And even in high CZs issue isn't in my shields or damage.
It is about ammo count, without boost to damage I have serious issues with completing one without synthesis.

Also, sorry to hear that, but all materials have a lot of possibilities to gather. Even pure combat, like combat missions connected with scanning ships.
If your playstyle cannot provide any of them sorry, but elite isn't good game for people hyperfocues at one specific loop. And it isn't space engineers. So no. No building stuff from mined ores.
But if you already have mindset "any progress must be trivial, and require grinidng credits or shooting to asteroids"...maybe NMS?
 
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I will say this. It takes A LOT of effort to 100% engineer a ship, and that effort sets apart the truly elite players (especially in the PVP arena) from those that aren't quite that dedicated. And I'll be honest and call myself just an advanced player, I'm not one of those upper elites at all. (I have billions, a fleet of ~24 ships, most 80% engineered, only do PVP rarely, have never done Thargoid content)
Defining a "true" Elite player as one who engineers a ship 100% and/or does PvP is a very arbitrary definition, very one-sided, and possibly also very wrong. I'd argue it takes more dedication to do the trip to Beagle Point, and then the long way home around the perimeter (and not do it in a Jumpaconda), than it takes to fully engineer a ship.

Also, "100%" engineering a ship might also not be very smart. Maybe the "true" elite class players are those who know diminishing returns and the pareto principle ;). Those who complain the most about how much materials it takes to 100% G5 a module are often those who don't grasp that you rarely gain anything beyond the fourth roll. If your life as a PvP player depends on gaining 0.05 percent more hull or 20 MJ more shields, it's possibly time to stop engineering and time to start working on the piloting skills.
 
please don’t tell me how I should enjoy something I paid for
While I think this perfectly true, I can't help but think that as you seem to be more interested on combat, you might have somewhat rushed onto upgrading an efficient combat ship ASAP, maybe to the point that such a quick and focused mat gathering certainly was unpleasant like it was some mandatory tedious step before you could finally find what you were actually looking for in the first place, and ended up disgusted unfortunately.

I hope you will find a more "straight to the point" coop space sim game that doesn't require such a "dojo patient practice" as ED does, as I understand that this feature appeals to some players and repels others.

Best regards anyway!
 
I gave the game a chance and spent time moderately engineering my FDL to see for myself, as some people said that “you don’t need engineering to enjoy the game.”

FSD: Long Range
Thrusters: Dirty Driving
Power Distributor: Charge-enhanced
Multi-cannon: Overcharged with incendiary
Beam lasers: Efficient with thermal vent

The difference between my stock FDL and a G3 to G4 engineered one is night and day. After a long day of responsibilities, I could finally log on and do an hour-long play session to relax and have a semblance of fun, but there were two problems.

-After testing this myself and from the perspective of a new player, the statement that “You don’t need engineering to play the game” is objectively false regarding combat.
-My experience gathering mats was highly unpleasant, to say the least, not because the process was grindy but because it was needlessly painful.

I refuse to do this to myself because I respect my time and will never engineer another ship, no matter the reward. I understand that some people say, “Just play the game, and you will gather mats passively.” No, that’s how YOU play the game, so please don’t tell me how I should enjoy something I paid for. All in all, I said this before, and I’ll repeat it. Engineering is why new players quit, and it will end this game. You don’t have to change anything just for our sake, but I wanted to give my two cents.

Dear Devs,

-Completely overhaul engineering if you want to retain new players
-Make mining relevant with ore processing and shipbuilding (we can already sell ships in carriers, so the framework is already there)
-We shouldn’t need 20 browser tabs open to play the game. Please implement a way to find information in-game.

I’m done with this game until, at the very least, engineering is fixed.

Thank you, and God bless.
Shame, but understandable. Know you're not alone with feeling these frustrations, regardless of the naysayers that still populate this place.

If you decide to give your FDL a little more attention - corrosive on the MC will get you a lot better mileage, as hull hitpoint inflation is usually the biggest obstacle to getting NPC opponents dead and +20% damage to everything hitting it with shields down is a big boost.

There's good player-made resources/guides available to help alleviate the pain of engineering as much as possible (so you can play with 3-5 tabs open instead of 20), and once that hurdle is surmounted, the game does feel a lot more opened up to possibility and doing what you please - for what it may be worth.

o7
 
Skill issue.
In terms of understanding, fight, or both.
You "dont need" mean "you can do it without it", not "it doesnt make things easier".
I'm able to do everything outside high CZs/AX in unengi ship. And even in high CZs issue isn't in my shields or damage.
It is about ammo count, without boost to damage I have serious issues with completing one without synthesis.

Also, sorry to hear that, but all materials have a lot of possibilities to gather. Even pure combat, like combat missions connected with scanning ships.
If your playstyle cannot provide any of them sorry, but elite isn't good game for people hyperfocues at one specific loop. And it isn't space engineers. So no. No building stuff from mined ores.
But if you already have mindset "any progress must be trivial, and require grinidng credits or shooting to asteroids"...maybe NMS?
Telling someone that's voicing an earnest complaint they feel with the game that they're having a "skill issue in understanding and ability" is outright hostile and toxic behavior.

If you don't have anything constructive to share, don't share it at all in a discussion space dedicated to suggestions and improvements.

NMS has many merits, space flight/combat remains something that is not one of them.
 
Defining a "true" Elite player as one who engineers a ship 100% and/or does PvP is a very arbitrary definition, very one-sided, and possibly also very wrong. I'd argue it takes more dedication to do the trip to Beagle Point, and then the long way home around the perimeter (and not do it in a Jumpaconda), than it takes to fully engineer a ship.

Also, "100%" engineering a ship might also not be very smart. Maybe the "true" elite class players are those who know diminishing returns and the pareto principle ;). Those who complain the most about how much materials it takes to 100% G5 a module are often those who don't grasp that you rarely gain anything beyond the fourth roll. If your life as a PvP player depends on gaining 0.05 percent more hull or 20 MJ more shields, it's possibly time to stop engineering and time to start working on the piloting skills.
Many players aren't interested in such long-term exploration voyages, that doesn't invalidate them as players of the game either.

Being a completionist isn't a sin. Wanting to optimize and achieve good results is natural. Being hindered and hampered by a poorly designed system of arbitrary timesinks is understandable as a turn-off for enjoyment.

Thumbing one's nose at one another does not change any of these statements.

Sure, you can save yourself a little pain by giving up on complete engineering, but what's the point? Extending a disliked experience even further as you gradually accumulate resources by semi-passive means over time, as is so often suggested by the naysayers here? Just as well to get it done and not have to think about it ever again (until the next time you think of a new thing or ship to try... speaking of which, a very easy win for Fdev would be raising the module storage limit from 200, I have too many nonfunctional Type 10s and Anacondas collecting dust.)
 
Many players aren't interested in such long-term exploration voyages, that doesn't invalidate them as players of the game either.
I'm not invalidating anyone. The post I was quoting kind of was, which was my point.

Being a completionist isn't a sin. Wanting to optimize and achieve good results is natural. Being hindered and hampered by a poorly designed system of arbitrary timesinks is understandable as a turn-off for enjoyment.

Thumbing one's nose at one another does not change any of these statements.
It's a problem when players try to, as you put it, invalidate others and thus put their own philisophy above others; this is how that post read ("true Elite players").
 
Many players aren't interested in such long-term exploration voyages, that doesn't invalidate them as players of the game either.

Being a completionist isn't a sin. Wanting to optimize and achieve good results is natural. Being hindered and hampered by a poorly designed system of arbitrary timesinks is understandable as a turn-off for enjoyment.
IMO, it's hard nut to crack for Frontier. To me the mat gathering gives me a purpose while playing, if it was made buy for credits I'd be at a loss with what to do with my playing time. I like shooting things and then hovering up the mats as a reward. Otherwise what would be left for me to do, explore, sightseeing, BGS gardening, PvP, or maybe some shenanigans like SRV antics, canyon racing, etc..

I can see that it might be frustrating for some players, on the other hand (again IMO), getting to G3 isn't all that arduous and makes quite a difference. Ought to be good for anyone that wants to play the game and doesn't have much time. Of course, it's bound to be frustrating for a completionist that wants it all very fast...

Not sure how Frontier could possible please the players on my side of the argument as well as the players on your side. Maybe letting us sell mats and and engineered modules and ships would satisfy both sides, on the other hand as noted that would open up selling stuff for real world money outside of the game, but in certain ways fleet carriers have already opened up that particular can of worms.
 
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