Powerplay 2.0 deep dive - Frontier Live 27th March

[Rubbernuke]

So a majority of players flying in one would in fact make the new system feel quite pointless with them having nothing to risk, and way less pvp to actually be had. Because as it even stands now outside of pp, someone floats up in a Cutter, even most vet pvpers are just gonna nope out. It is just not worth the time. I have had 45 minute cutter vs cutter fights. Never again.

Like I said, what the system is relying on for fortification is whats in the hold- and that if there is nothing to generally fear then there is no reason not to do it, given that Cutter is essentially god in solo or PG making those modes even more meaningless. And if thats the case, you wind up with hauling races, which killed V1.

But I'm not against FD re-balancing ships, given that many need a look at.

 

[Adam_Aster]

Not invincible but damn near close. You can even get more cargo capacity if you wanted to, there is no need for 10k MJ and that is only with 2 pips in systems! Put 4 pips and you get 25k MJ!

EDSY

EDSY is a ship outfitting tool for Elite Dangerous

edsy.org

 

[Adam_Aster]

Like I said, what the system is relying on for fortification is whats in the hold- and that if there is nothing to generally fear then there is no reason not to do it, given that Cutter is essentially god in solo or PG making those modes even more meaningless. And if thats the case, you wind up with hauling races, which killed V1.

But I'm not against FD re-balancing ships, given that many need a look at.

Yes this is all I'm saying i think we agree on that point. If this is going to be open only then we need to look at how things are right now, because we are going to see alot of builds like this running around just to avoid the pvp this change was intended to encourage more of.

 

[Rebel Yell]

To get blown up in a Cutter you would have to either be intentionally trying to get blown up, or having an incredible amount of skill issues. Even with torps existing, which are laughably easy to evade. That on top of nothing mass locking it (besides another one), sure there are grom bombs, but even then you can stack enough MJ for it to not even matter. If one dies in a Cutter as they are balanced now it is a skill issue. If the players aren't jumping away as soon as cooldown is off and you get hit with a few hatch breakers, that is on the player.

It's very situational, but in general 1v1 case that's true even using a brawler built Cutter (which forces the hauler to HW) shreddin' 5mj of shields may require some time (around 1 minute or so). Medium ships (FDL/Mamba/Krait for the most), even properly fitted, can't break the stacked shield in a single instance for sure... even landing a couple or more groms and having alpha-DPS output builds (PAs, frags) [hatch breaker are not really relevant besides these may anyway take out 10-20t of hauled cargo].

It has to be considered that most times the goal of the blockades is to slow down enemy hauling and/or to force the enemy to change strategy (i.e. calling escorts etc.) so bottom line all that happens/results in a disruption of enemy's activity and efficiency.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Yes this is all I'm saying i think we agree on that point. If this is going to be open only then we need to look at how things are right now, because we are going to see alot of builds like this running around just to avoid the pvp this change was intended to encourage more of.

Or that you make tasks that can't be done with L pad ships- or do both.

It will be interesting to see what the Python Mk 2 is balanced for, given FD suggested its PvPness.

 

[Adam_Aster]

It's very situational, but in general 1v1 case that's true even using a brawler built Cutter (which forces the hauler to HW) shreddin' 5mj of shields may require some time (around 1 minute or so). Medium ships (FDL/Mamba/Krait for the most), even properly fitted, can't break the stacked shield in a single instance for sure... even landing a couple or more groms and having alpha-DPS output builds (PAs, frags) [hatch breaker are not really relevant besides these may anyway take out 10-20t of hauled cargo].

It has to be considered that most times the goal of the blockades is to slow down enemy hauling and/or to force the enemy to change strategy (i.e. calling escorts etc.) so bottom line all that happens/results in a disruption of enemy's activity and efficiency.

Yea I can understand the main purpose to disrupt, it just kind of feels hollow to me if more of the confrontations end up as a mere disruption than they do a rebuy. Sometimes you just want the kill. I have fond memories of 4 manning some cutters and it was fun for a while, now adays though I think I would just pass.
You are right though if you only care about the disrupting then having them jump away is an acceptable goal to have. To me personally it just kind of feels like fishing and going home with nothing sometimes, after so many high wakes.
Edit: The 5K was a VERY conservative MJ amount just due to the fact I know alot around here just GOTTA have cargo racks in every slot and take the size 8 Prismo (i think 6 is enough and then use 2 size 8 racks personally thats 8k on 2 pips). (which hey, you do you 5k usually enough anyways but you can easily double that and still carry 400 tons)

 

[Rubbernuke]

hatch breaker are not really relevant besides these may anyway take out 10-20t of hauled cargo].

What I meant was- if you ruin a cargo run by repeatedly ejecting cargo you are slowing down the rival doubly, esp if they HW. The cargo then needs replacing.

As an example from the build posted, from 400 odd cargo if you take out half of that then you have halved that effort, slowing the powers fortification.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Mmm I think that the different tiers will be something like:

• the current Powerplay advantages (taking as an example Archon Delaine, which I am more familiar with, I expect that our tasty "no more bounties" will be our Top Tier Bonus)
• some new bonuses appropriate to the Power (making an example with Archon Delaine, some kind of Bonus for selling stuff at the Black Markets)
• if they want to keep the old Powerplay Commodities in some form, they will be increasingly accessible through the different tiers
• Powerplay modules if they want to keep them but I really hope they will be moved to Tech-Brokers
• some rebuy bonus if you are killed in your systems
• MAYBE some dedicated and unique cosmetics, but I doubt that (it would be a great investment in resources for something they'd basically give away for free)

Speaking of the Care Packages I expect them to be:

• credits
• materials
• ARX packages? Don't think so (they covered that already in the weekly competition), but happy to be wrong about it
• rebuy vouchers functioning in every system (that could make Open more accessible)

Powerplay being Open-only would be nothing more than a ganker's paradise. All you'd have to do is sit at the main star in any faction's main system and simply wait for your prey to come along. If I wanted forced PvP, I'd play EVE.

Or you could just ignore Powerplay and dedicate yourself to something else, like BGS. Every game mechanic is completely optional, an Open Only designed one would be the same as exploring, mining, PvP, Thargoid-wars etc.
Honestly this passive-aggressive attitude really doesn't bring anything to the debate. As they say, "This is not the airport, there's no need to announce your departure".

I think the real question is: putting our desires aside, would the game gain more players, more engagement and more money by putting in something designed to be Open Only, without "forcing" people to engage that game mechanic specifically for their personal gains (aka: collecting modules)?

Honestly I think it would. PP2 is the last ticket for that kind of game market, and honestly the competitive gameplay with people actually shooting each other and/or trying to evade (or chase) an enemy is probably more fun to watch in any stream than other things like mining, exploring, trading etc. Not for me or you specifically, but for the general public.

This would make Elite Dangerous different? Yeah, totally.

Does Elite Dangerous need to be different to survive? Yeah, totally.

 

[Rebel Yell]

Yea I can understand the main purpose to disrupt, it just kind of feels hollow to me if more of the confrontations end up as a mere disruption than they do a rebuy. Sometimes you just want the kill. I have fond memories of 4 manning some cutters and it was fun for a while, now adays though I think I would just pass.
You are right though if you only care about the disrupting then having them jump away is an acceptable goal to have. To me personally it just kind of feels like fishing and going home with nothing sometimes, after so many high wakes.
Edit: The 5K was a VERY conservative MJ amount just due to the fact I know alot around here just GOTTA have cargo racks in every slot. (which hey, you do you 5k usually enough anyways but you can easily double that and still carry 400 tons)

I know, but that's the state of the game and we do have also experienced some powers switching to cringe-game mode to avoid the annoyance.

Of course they all ended up in the wall of shame... for what is worth.

 

[Rebel Yell]

What I meant was- if you ruin a cargo run by repeatedly ejecting cargo you are slowing down the rival doubly, esp if they HW. The cargo then needs replacing.

As an example from the build posted, from 400 odd cargo if you take out half of that then you have halved that effort, slowing the powers fortification.

Indeed, that's what I said... when you have to haul thousands of fort's, and you're a bit late at it, with half available space + more time you could end outmatched for the Cycle.

 

[Adam_Aster]

I know, but that's the state of the game and we do have also experienced some powers switching to cringe-game mode to avoid the annoyance.

Of course they all ended up in the wall of shame... for what is worth.

Yea. I hope whatever changes are on the horizon we see some sort of meta shakeup to alleviate such things. I'm not sayin I wanna just click something and have it die, but as it stands right now I can see a galaxy full of Cutters and little rebuys to be had. A pass on builds in general would be nice to see IMO. I love potato launchers but it would be nice to see some other things be used more.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

About the "ganking" issue: we should consider that in PP2 you'd have teams, and that would be very visible in the radar.
In an Open Only environment a group of PvPers would go where you see more action in the game menu, and for the players trying to give their contributions there will be PLENTY of systems to fortify up to the Stronghold state: Powerplay is designed to be VAST, and if you are able to see where there's more action you can see where there's less action too of course. It would fit the different gamestyles even in an Open Only environment.
I think that if a group of PvPers will try to do a blockade in a particular system they will attract at some point other groups of PvPers, making it easier for all the players to do their part. Of course there will be players capable of do more and players capable to do less, but that's what competition is: you can't always win, sometimes you need a strategic retreat or simply to accept the loss. And that's fun too, if you think about it.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

Contrast this with responses elsewhere on this topic saying OO is pointless because of my shield-tank Cutter.

Either its an impossible hellscape or attacks are useless....which one is it?

When I got my Cytoscramblers I had 4 or 5 ships to my name, none of the big ones.
Concentrating on players with max superpower rank and unlocked engineers would be a mistake.

 

[Rubbernuke]

When I got my Cytoscramblers I had 4 or 5 ships to my name, none of the big ones.
Concentrating on players with max superpower rank and unlocked engineers would be a mistake.

I think it is a valid point in that while PP V2 is good, it still relies on the rest of the game to be good too- and that without balance that can't be done easily.

 

[Shurimal]

Contrast this with responses elsewhere on this topic saying OO is pointless because of my shield-tank Cutter.

Either its an impossible hellscape or attacks are useless....which one is it?

Can be both at the same time for the same player depending on what ship they fly and what activity they do Still want to see some blockader in a Mamba try and catch a well-built Clipper or Orca, nevermind a Courier if you don't need cargo space

someone floats up in a Cutter, even most vet pvpers are just gonna nope out. It is just not worth the time. I have had 45 minute cutter vs cutter fights. Never again.

...until some utter madlad shows up in a mine-equipped Cobra Or maybe destroying thrusters with fletchette launchers will be the new meta?

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Guys, we are all thinking about the OLD Powerplay Game mechanics: I don't think that the haul2fortify vs kill2undermine mechanic will stay. If I understood well, they want to many of the different activities in game to give a contribution in Powerplay, what will matter is if the Players doing such actions are actually pledged or not (and which Power they are pledged to).

 

[Darkfyre99]

Powerplay being Open-only would be nothing more than a ganker's paradise. All you'd have to do is sit at the main star in any faction's main system and simply wait for your prey to come along. If I wanted forced PvP, I'd play EVE.

If it's anything like the PP 1.0 premier, it'll probably go something like this:

There will be non-aligned "gankers" who will be a potential threat for a few weeks, whereupon they discover that the type of player interested in PowerPlay (and plays in Open) aren't easy kills. Soon afterwards, they all vanished, and soon after that 5C activities started.

 

[Rubbernuke]

If it's anything like the PP 1.0 premier, it'll probably go something like this:

There will be non-aligned "gankers" who will be a potential threat for a few weeks, whereupon they discover that the type of player interested in PowerPlay (and plays in Open) aren't easy kills. Soon afterwards, they all vanished, and soon after that 5C activities started.

5C as it stands won't work in V2 since there are no votes, no CC to screw up and it being all decentralized and BGS like.

 

[Darkfyre99]

5C as it stands won't work in V2 since there are no votes, no CC to screw up and it being all decentralized and BGS like.

What I'm saying is, if the "gankers" are anything like 1.0, they'll move on to easier targets. It just won't be PowerPlay.

 

[Rubbernuke]

What I'm saying is, if the "gankers" are anything like 1.0, they'll move on to easier targets. It just won't be PowerPlay.

True.