Proposal: alternative to outright removal of ADS instascan & system map minigame for explorers

[WR3ND]

The proposed scanning mechanic does at least resemble the process that astronomers use to locate objects.
...

I think that's a bit of a stretch applied to this specific function in the game. Most of the worlds (well, planets at least) in our system were discovered by looking at the night sky.

I suppose that you could sort of argue that the Earth wasn't really discovered until they figured out it was orbiting around the sun, but I digress.

 

[Mohrgan]

I don't have to stop exploring, to collect tokens, to start exploring again, as it stands. Yes, it is a monotonous, soulless unending repetitive one-button click of just oxygen stealing proportions. But is the focus solving that by making it a monotonous, soulless unending repetitive one-button click of just oxygen stealing proportions to collect the tokens to enable the mini-game? It's just moved where that happens.

People are so hung up on the process, it's like they've forgotten the reasons to explore. Even Frontier have forgotten. Instead of filling the universe, they're just filling the cockpit with a new endless chore, to replace the old one.

Beta may prove me entirely wrong and I will celebrate being a very wrong person with probably more gusto than anyone else. But this is where we are. Replacing a single button push, with a two new button pushes. Both just as monotonous and soulless and oxygen stealing as the last.

One to collect the tokens (materials) and one to start the mini-game again. Is that exploring? Or just being an accountant. I have no idea.

What of the mechanics of exploration bring you to gathering those mats? I can't see a real problem with having to stay stocked up on things. Other professions certainly have to. I can't see a reason why the necessary stuffs can't be available to us out there in the wilds.

A procedural generated galaxy does not seem best suited to expect enough unusual sights to be sustainable. Most of what's out there is the same as what we have here. That's pretty much the science of it.

Right now those that explore the heavens are doing exactly what FD are offering us: Training specialized equipment on natural phenomena. Once the science gets done, then they get those glamor shots. Most astronomical discoveries are represented by data sets, not glossy photos.

 

[kofeyh]

The proposed scanning mechanic does at least resemble the process that astronomers use to locate objects.
1) look for objects emitting a certain peak frequency of photon energy
2) filter out muddling signals
3) look for wiggles in the EM signal: gravitational anomalies
4) try to guess the distance, and by knowing the distance better guess what the object might be

So yes, the proposed mechanic does very much resemble RL astrophysical observation and discovery techniques so it has quite a better claim to being "Exploration" than anything we've seen to date.

It does. It also is multi-step and how well is it going to age, on the thousandth use? This is a game (a good one) but still a game and anything gets old, very quickly, if it's a required component, rather than a supporting one. Beta will be interesting because I won't be doing this once or twice.

I want to know, just how many times I can do this, before I am "good" on the principle. I want to know how fast it will become "sometimes" and the rest of the time I do exactly, 100% exactly the same thing as now, honk, be reminded that most of the galaxy is just a bunch of ice and dirt worlds with nothing on them, and move on.

If we end up, just honking, most of the time - what has actually changed? That, is my question. Frontier are very good at building process. They are less good at making that process engaging repeatedly. And so yeah, I am 100% waiting for Beta.

Because I think this sort of navel gazing and determination to shift changes before we even see them, is exactly why we've ended up where we are. Because Frontier change something at the last minute, rather than delivering on their promises.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

The proposed scanning mechanic does at least resemble the process that astronomers use to locate objects.
1) look for objects emitting a certain peak frequency of photon energy
2) filter out muddling signals
3) look for wiggles in the EM signal: gravitational anomalies
4) try to guess the distance, and by knowing the distance better guess what the object might be

So yes, the proposed mechanic does very much resemble RL astrophysical observation and discovery techniques so it has quite a better claim to being "Exploration" than anything we've seen to date.

Meanwhile, the current mechanic is more like opening up the Google Map app on a city that is only missing street view, and you're there to drive around with your Omni camera. Like Pacman, but without any ghost monsters.

I'm pretty sure that if astronomers had access to FTL spacecraft they wouldn't be messing around with radio telescopes.

 

[Ziljan]

I don't have to stop exploring, to collect tokens, to start exploring again, as it stands. Yes, it is a monotonous, soulless unending repetitive one-button click of just oxygen stealing proportions. But is the focus solving that by making it a monotonous, soulless unending repetitive one-button click of just oxygen stealing proportions to collect the tokens to enable the mini-game? It's just moved where that happens.

People are so hung up on the process, it's like they've forgotten the reasons to explore. Even Frontier have forgotten. Instead of filling the universe, they're just filling the cockpit with a new endless chore, to replace the old one.

Beta may prove me entirely wrong and I will celebrate being a very wrong person with probably more gusto than anyone else. But this is where we are. Replacing a single button push, with a two new button pushes. Both just as monotonous and soulless and oxygen stealing as the last.

One to collect the tokens (materials) and one to start the mini-game again. Is that exploring? Or just being an accountant. I have no idea.

I think you're underestimating the intrinsic value of a mystery. They are inherently compelling because: humans. The current system has only one mystery: "is that planet terraformable?" Once the ADS is honked, everything else is either known or subsequently inconsequential information. It goes without saying that terraformable hunting is one of the most popular and compelling activities in Exploration today. That seems like a pretty solid argument for adding more mystery and guess work to the game.

 

[kofeyh]

What of the mechanics of exploration bring you to gathering those mats?

The probes. We have a finite supply, and that replaces the lack of consumption of anything else at present. And you'll excuse me, after the Guardian blueprints, if I reserve "how bad could it be?" till Beta drops. It could be amazing? It could also very much not be.

Folks here have a notoriously short memory. You'll excuse me if I've seen enough before, to be a little sceptical.

 

[Mohrgan]

I think that's a bit of a stretch applied to this specific function in the game. Most of the worlds (well, planets at least) in our system were discovered by looking at the night sky.

Discovered, yes. Explored, no. It takes specialized scanners, probes that both fly-by, and drop onto other bodies for us to gain the knowledge we need. I don;t think it's a far stretch to say, how we study the cosmos now, inspired the features coming.

 

[mossfoot]

I think that's a bit of a stretch applied to this specific function in the game. Most of the worlds (well, planets at least) in our system were discovered by looking at the night sky.

I suppose that you could sort of argue that the Earth wasn't really discovered until they figured out it was orbiting around the sun, but I digress.

Given HOW they discovered those planets, that would count as a vote to return to parallax shift hunting

 

[Ziljan]

I'm pretty sure that if astronomers had access to FTL spacecraft they wouldn't be messing around with radio telescopes.

We use radio telescopes on the Sun and on Jupiter. They are as close as any object in-system in Elite.

 

[WR3ND]

Given HOW they discovered those planets, that would count as a vote to return to parallax shift hunting

I'm game. Just let me target worlds and travel to them to discover them when I spot them.

Would be a nice additional option.

 

[Mohrgan]

The probes. We have a finite supply, and that replaces the lack of consumption of anything else at present. And you'll excuse me, after the Guardian blueprints, if I reserve "how bad could it be?" till Beta drops. It could be amazing? It could also very much not be.

Folks here have a notoriously short memory. You'll excuse me if I've seen enough before, to be a little sceptical.

They did mention that the probes would be able to be synthesized, like ammo. The best move would be to make the mats readily available out there. Plus, it is not unreasonable to have to return to civilization once in a while. You will have to for Heat Sinks anyhow. If the mats are materials instead of cargo, there no hindrance that isn't inherent throughout the game.

I'm game. Just let me target worlds and travel to them to discover them when I spot them.

Would be a nice additional option.

I saw no information that you wouldn't be able to do just that.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

We use radio telescopes on the Sun and on Jupiter. They are as close as any object in-system in Elite.

Yes, because we can't physically visit them in a matter of seconds.

 

[WR3ND]

Discovered, yes. Explored, no. It takes specialized scanners, probes that both fly-by, and drop onto other bodies for us to gain the knowledge we need. I don;t think it's a far stretch to say, how we study the cosmos now, inspired the features coming.

Seems more like a distinction in semantics than gameplay though, at least with the proposed ADS mechanics. I personally prefer exploring systems by finding interesting looking ones and flying around in them and above their worlds.

 

[kofeyh]

I think you're underestimating the intrinsic value of a mystery. They are inherently compelling because: humans. The current system has only one mystery: "is that planet terraformable?".

I don't explore for money, m8. I understand the intrinsic value of mystery fine; I also understand things become less of a mystery if you have no choice but to play "where's wally?" thousands and thousands of times until you're all done with the mystery. The problem with the honk, isn't that that has no sense of mystery. It's because it's mindless repetition with no pay off. That's less "mystery" and more "repetition".

I am for sure keen to see compelling tasks and supporting mechanics being added? My dude I have forever said that engaging with the universe we are in, is totally a cool thing. But I am not convinced this will be such a thing, and as I have said, I look forward to Beta, so I know what it is, not what people think it to be. A great many ideas expressed have been actually very cool.

I agree with quite a lot of what has been said, in fact. But a great idea, is just an idea, until it's executed. That's when it really matters. Ideas are free. Actuals cost. I'm gonna see how much that will end up being, in Beta. o7

 

[WR3ND]

...

I saw no information that you wouldn't be able to do just that.

I thought the plan is that we'll have to do the ADS stuff to target worlds and discover them?

 

[Ziljan]

I think that's a bit of a stretch applied to this specific function in the game. Most of the worlds (well, planets at least) in our system were discovered by looking at the night sky.

I suppose that you could sort of argue that the Earth wasn't really discovered until they figured out it was orbiting around the sun, but I digress.

There are over 550,000 objects in the solar system. Most of them were discovered by gravitational anomalies that perturbed orbits of other known objects, which is very similar to how the new mechanic points to unresolved objects.

 

[Mohrgan]

Seems more like a distinction in semantics than gameplay though, at least with the proposed ADS mechanics. I personally prefer exploring systems by finding interesting looking ones and flying around in them and above their worlds.

Show me how what we've been told so far about the new mechanics, indicates you won't be able to do that. Granted, how you specifically do that may change a bit, but you'll still be traveling about a system, gathering data on what you find interesting. Looking at a scanner interface, rather than a static model of the system doesn't seem like much of a hurdle.

 

[kofeyh]

They did mention that the probes would be able to be synthesized, like ammo. The best move would be to make the mats readily available out there.

Yes, you would think that would be the best move but then heat-sinks do not do this and require a material you cannot obtain outside of occupied systems, so, do we consider history, or ignore it because it's not convenient?

Seriously, I hope Frontier bloody nail this like nothing before. Just make it the best damned thing ever. But I'd be a bit naive, to ignore history and presume they won't do, entirely what they have done on more than one occasion before. Again; agree, actually, with a lot presented by a number of people here. Not everything, will automatically translate to compelling content, just because there's a real world counterpart, though.

I just don't and won't take anything Frontier does at face value, as being okay surely, because I'd be a bit of a idiot to keep doing that given decisions and outcomes past.

The devil is, as they say, in the details, roll on Beta. I am still jazzed for that, even if I sound a little cynical. o7

 

[Mohrgan]

I thought the plan is that we'll have to do the ADS stuff to target worlds and discover them?

I understood it to mean that the scanner data could be interpreted to find the objects you are interested in. We'll just have to learn how to read the data, instead of having a finished map handed to us. Once you know where the signal sources are coming from, you can be off and probing.

 

[WR3ND]

Show me how what we've been told so far about the new mechanics, indicates you won't be able to do that. Granted, how you specifically do that may change a bit, but you'll still be traveling about a system, gathering data on what you find interesting. Looking at a scanner interface, rather than a static model of the system doesn't seem like much of a hurdle.

It's about 2000 jumps between Beagle Point and me with the ship I plan on taking out there. That little stuff adds up real quick, unfortunately.