The Joystick/Controller discussion thread

[Psychomorph]

Look at defender cobra m5, I used that before switching for warthog. It's cheap, precise, have quite a lot of buttons with 3 shifts.

I tried that one. It's a really nice stick, but it has way too much tilting, almost like 45 degrees. It is a bit too light to move for my taste also and the buttons/hats are a bit uncomfortably placed.

I also just tried the T16000M and honestly am not very impressed. The deadzone-less zero position is great, but in any other respect it is worse than my old Speedlink. Feels very unsmooth, almost like shifting a gear stick. Moves a bit left or right when pulling it straight back or forward, so it makes me rolling a bit while pitching. It also is as uncomfortable as it looks on pictures, my old stick feels like made for my hand. Quite poor actually, wonder why it's praised so much. Also, who thought that blinding green LED was a good idea anyway...


I'm out of options. I actually thought about the CH Fighterstick, but it lacks twist, which is quite a handicap (if I already pay so much).

Why is the situation so catastrophic finding a good stick?

 

[Insomnia]

Why is the situation so catastrophic finding a good stick?

Maybe because you might be expecting a little too much?
I bought a used X55 and I was scared to death about the build quality. A year later, it still works. And I still love it! I'm very gentle with the hat switches though as I know they can brake down.

 

[Nickola]

In my opinion, the lack of Twist is a non-issue.
For some time I flew without it configured on my Warthog ... now I've put it on the X-axis of the "mouse button" on my throttle.
It works great.

 

[jgm]

I'm out of options. I actually thought about the CH Fighterstick, but it lacks twist, which is quite a handicap (if I already pay so much).

I have a CH setup with pedals and have yaw mapped to digital inputs on the throttle as well as the pedals. Honestly there isn't a lot of difference between them: because yaw is relatively slow having a digital input for them isn't nearly as bad as it is for pitch or roll.

 

[Psychomorph]

Maybe because you might be expecting a little too much?

Given the available options I probably do.

In my opinion, the lack of Twist is a non-issue.
For some time I flew without it configured on my Warthog ... now I've put it on the X-axis of the "mouse button" on my throttle.
It works great.

I will go for a throttle sometime, but for now I use a mouse with the left hand, so I kind of need it on the stick. It just works too well for me with my current stick, so it's an odd thought to downgrade on this, just to have a better stick that leaves you handicapped nonetheless.

I have a CH setup with pedals and have yaw mapped to digital inputs on the throttle as well as the pedals. Honestly there isn't a lot of difference between them: because yaw is relatively slow having a digital input for them isn't nearly as bad as it is for pitch or roll.

For Elite it's a fair point, but I also will use the stick for Star Citizen and Infinity Battlescape, and the yaw in SC is not nerved and quite necessary for fixed gun aiming.


I'll give the T16000 few more tries, but otherwise I think about the CH Stick and about how I might solve the lack of twist issue.

I feel a bit depressed.

 

[Cataclysm72]

Given the available options I probably do.


I feel a bit depressed.

Or, do as i did. If you feel the available options aren't good enough, build your own and get EXACTLY what you want/need.

 

[Psychomorph]

Or, do as i did. If you feel the available options aren't good enough, build your own and get EXACTLY what you want/need.

That's what I am thinking about actually. I guess your signature has the information?

Edit: I checked your link. Wow, speechless.

Also I like the design of it. Personally I can't stand all the over the top gamer gear designs and prefer an utilitarian, almost self build for purpose design.

 

[MartinG]

I also just tried the T16000M and honestly am not very impressed. The deadzone-less zero position is great, but in any other respect it is worse than my old Speedlink. […] Moves a bit left or right when pulling it straight back or forward, so it makes me rolling a bit while pitching.

Ah yes, that’s an aspect I didn’t cover.

Zero deadzone looks great until you realize that T16000M (like most sticks nowadays, I believe) does not have independent centring mechanisms for X and Y axes. That means you have no tactile feedback if the stick is slightly off-axis… which is much less of a problem if you have some deadzone on that axis.

This is yet another reason I use the T16000M for thruster control: in situations where it’s most useful (like picking a place to land), a little bit of thrust to the side does no harm.

 

[Cataclysm72]

That's what I am thinking about actually. I guess your signature has the information?

Edit: I checked your link. Wow, speechless.

Also I like the design of it. Personally I can't stand all the over the top gamer gear designs and prefer an utilitarian, almost self build for purpose design.

Do research before you dive in. Make prototypes. Buy what you can't make or engineer. Spoiler: it will not be cheaper than a full Warthog setup. But it will be awesome. And you learn tons.

 

[Psychomorph]

Ah yes, that’s an aspect I didn’t cover.

Zero deadzone looks great until you realize that T16000M (like most sticks nowadays, I believe) does not have independent centring mechanisms for X and Y axes. That means you have no tactile feedback if the stick is slightly off-axis… which is much less of a problem if you have some deadzone on that axis.

This is yet another reason I use the T16000M for thruster control: in situations where it’s most useful (like picking a place to land), a little bit of thrust to the side does no harm.

Yeah.

Do research before you dive in. Make prototypes. Buy what you can't make or engineer. Spoiler: it will not be cheaper than a full Warthog setup. But it will be awesome. And you learn tons.

I figure it'll be pricey, enduring and difficult, so I don't think it's a real option for me, but maybe I look into it at some point.

So how does your flight stick behave? Is it very easy to move, or is there resistance? What's the deadzone like? Centering mechanism and all?

 

[Psychomorph]

Zero deadzone looks great until you realize that T16000M (like most sticks nowadays, I believe) does not have independent centring mechanisms for X and Y axes.

I noticed my Speedlink Defender kind of notches in centered if you pitch back and move it slightly left and right, hence the pitch stays stable so effortlessly. The T16000M has two notches, one slightly left and one slightly right, and to keep that perfectly stable centered pitch takes some effort that it cramps my wrist, because the stick wants to notch into one of these off center notches so badly. Jesus, why would someone build this? Perhaps my unit is flawed, because I hear so much praise for it and wonder what is going on with people (or myself)?

Maybe I try to find another Speedlink stick somewhere, because it has really crisp buttons and trigger, awesome shape, the perfect tension and is self centered, but unfortunately it is very loose in neutral position and has some malfunctions within this area (like if you roll left within this loose area, it rolls right for a sec. and things like that).

 

[GTwannabe]

I noticed my Speedlink Defender kind of notches in centered if you pitch back and move it slightly left and right, hence the pitch stays stable so effortlessly. The T16000M has two notches, one slightly left and one slightly right, and to keep that perfectly stable centered pitch takes some effort that it cramps my wrist, because the stick wants to notch into one of these off center notches so badly. Jesus, why would someone build this? Perhaps my unit is flawed, because I hear so much praise for it and wonder what is going on with people (or myself)?

Maybe I try to find another Speedlink stick somewhere, because it has really crisp buttons and trigger, awesome shape, the perfect tension and is self centered, but unfortunately it is very loose in neutral position and has some malfunctions within this area (like if you roll left within this loose area, it rolls right for a sec. and things like that).

No such issues with my T16000M. Extremely accurate and snaps back to center with zero drift.

 

[Cataclysm72]

I figure it'll be pricey, enduring and difficult, so I don't think it's a real option for me, but maybe I look into it at some point.

So how does your flight stick behave? Is it very easy to move, or is there resistance? What's the deadzone like? Centering mechanism and all?

Some people consider it a challenge, and a rewarding one. To put it mildly, it sounds to me you are out of options because the sticks in your budget aren't up to your expectation.

My sticks perform great for what i need. The throttle has enough resistance for it to stay where it is at, and the flight stick is loose enough not to hurt your wrist after a good 1-hour dogfight session. Centering is done with a spring disk thingy. I use a 5% deadzone because i also do a lot of long haul travel. I made it all with hall effect sensors getting a 10-bit resolution (effectively only 9 bits because i'm only use half the sensor range).

 

[lysan]

I tried that one. It's a really nice stick, but it has way too much tilting, almost like 45 degrees. It is a bit too light to move for my taste also and the buttons/hats are a bit uncomfortably placed.

I also just tried the T16000M and honestly am not very impressed. The deadzone-less zero position is great, but in any other respect it is worse than my old Speedlink. Feels very unsmooth, almost like shifting a gear stick. Moves a bit left or right when pulling it straight back or forward, so it makes me rolling a bit while pitching. It also is as uncomfortable as it looks on pictures, my old stick feels like made for my hand. Quite poor actually, wonder why it's praised so much. Also, who thought that blinding green LED was a good idea anyway...


I'm out of options. I actually thought about the CH Fighterstick, but it lacks twist, which is quite a handicap (if I already pay so much).

Why is the situation so catastrophic finding a good stick?

There several options out there.

http://www.vkb-sim.pro/viewtopic.php?t=1947

http://www.flightlink.com/base-page/gs3plus/

http://www.helistart.com/helisimcontrols.aspx

[video=youtube;IoE3FdE8rKo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoE3FdE8rKo[/video]

 

[Durden T.]

Saitek X-55 for me.

Flawless...

 

[Psychomorph]

Some people consider it a challenge, and a rewarding one. To put it mildly, it sounds to me you are out of options because the sticks in your budget aren't up to your expectation.

I'd raise my budget if I had something to buy. The way I see it, you have two sides, cheaper sub 50,- sticks and 150+ sticks, of which some aren't even of best quality and the price mainly comes from the fact that these are (forced) HOTAS systems. And beyond that you have expensive enthusiast flight-sim hardware, as Lysander lysan posted.

The M5 Cobra is the only one that might come closer to that middle range segment (in price and quality), because as I said, it's a quite good stick in my opinion, but it aims toward a specific way of use with it's wide range of movement and very light spring (action flight shooters). It almost feels like a glorified Xbox stick.
The only thing above that would probably be the CH stuff, but mainly because you aren't forced to pay for an additional throttle. The problem with CH is that their sticks are build after a real flightstick and lack twist, which means you need to find additional solutions for this, which means additional money to spend.

If I was a flight-sim enthusiast I'd have already invested into proper gear, but I am mainly looking for a stick for space flight games and I find gear that is built after real combat jet equipment quite inappropriate for space vessels. The twist is not just a game solution, given how it exists in the space shuttle as well (if I'm not mistaken).


So for me it's not just performance, but also (here it comes) immersion and (oh boy close your eyes and ears) realism. I don't want a light stick that makes my ship twitch as soon as I lay my hand on it, nor do I want a stick that is an "antique" F-16 stick installed into a future space fighter. The T16000M covers those two elements actually well, unfortunately it's a cheaper sub 50 stick and it kind of shows. I'd gladly pay 100 for it, if there was something suitable actually available.

And those Star Citizen marketing joysticks that Saitek will bring look horrendous. Not gonna touch it.


Does it all somehow make sense? Or am I in the minority with my point of view?

My sticks perform great for what i need. The throttle has enough resistance for it to stay where it is at, and the flight stick is loose enough not to hurt your wrist after a good 1-hour dogfight session. Centering is done with a spring disk thingy. I use a 5% deadzone because i also do a lot of long haul travel. I made it all with hall effect sensors getting a 10-bit resolution (effectively only 9 bits because i'm only use half the sensor range).

Sounds good, maybe if I get desperate I'll order one from you. :x

No such issues with my T16000M. Extremely accurate and snaps back to center with zero drift.

My unit snaps into center too, but if I pull it back, it kinda moves off center (slight left, or right) unless I put some effort into keeping it straight, which I don't even feel, but have to see how the ship moves. My old stick goes straight back, unless you actually move it slight to the side. I love the stability and stiffness of the T16000M, but that is a bit of a problem. Also the hat is not comfortable, but theoretically I can fix this by putting something on it.

So does your T16000M not have that issue? Also when you bought it, was the ball in the base oily?


- - -


So I've been flying around in Star Citizen a bit and I have to say I do like the way the T16000M goes actually, love the stability and resistance that feels almost like a real flight stick (and love the twist). Not sure how it'll do in dog fighting, but dog fighting is actually not my main concern with space games. However, it is not a very comfortable shape and I have this pitch centering issue. As said, no other options available as far as I can tell.

 

[Dan J Harding]

Hi Cosmos, I have a 3D pro, I've actually went thru a few of them during my Mech Warrior years, and I luv the stick. I tried one for this game as I already had one, and it worked just fine, although I did have to use the custom configuration in the control panel of the game. I also have the Thrustmaster Hotas stick which is the one I ended up using for this game. To be on the fair side of the sticks, I do not think I gave the 3D pro enough time in game to evaluate it , I might have just wanted to use the new Hotas because it is a two handed stick. Time will tell.

 

[Jack Splatter]

Hi All,

I voted other, in fact I'm using a Wingman Extreme Digital 3D. I have an issue though and wondered if anyone else had encountered something similar. The pitch rate I achieve with the joystick is about 50% of the rate achieved when using the keyboard. I can initiate a roll with the joystick, then add in the keyboard input and the pitch rate increases significantly.

Thanks

JS

 

[lysan]

I'd raise my budget if I had something to buy. The way I see it, you have two sides, cheaper sub 50,- sticks and 150+ sticks, of which some aren't even of best quality and the price mainly comes from the fact that these are (forced) HOTAS systems. And beyond that you have expensive enthusiast flight-sim hardware, as Lysander lysan posted.

The M5 Cobra is the only one that might come closer to that middle range segment (in price and quality), because as I said, it's a quite good stick in my opinion, but it aims toward a specific way of use with it's wide range of movement and very light spring (action flight shooters). It almost feels like a glorified Xbox stick.
The only thing above that would probably be the CH stuff, but mainly because you aren't forced to pay for an additional throttle. The problem with CH is that their sticks are build after a real flightstick and lack twist, which means you need to find additional solutions for this, which means additional money to spend.

If I was a flight-sim enthusiast I'd have already invested into proper gear, but I am mainly looking for a stick for space flight games and I find gear that is built after real combat jet equipment quite inappropriate for space vessels. The twist is not just a game solution, given how it exists in the space shuttle as well (if I'm not mistaken).


So for me it's not just performance, but also (here it comes) immersion and (oh boy close your eyes and ears) realism. I don't want a light stick that makes my ship twitch as soon as I lay my hand on it, nor do I want a stick that is an "antique" F-16 stick installed into a future space fighter. The T16000M covers those two elements actually well, unfortunately it's a cheaper sub 50 stick and it kind of shows. I'd gladly pay 100 for it, if there was something suitable actually available.

And those Star Citizen marketing joysticks that Saitek will bring look horrendous. Not gonna touch it.


Does it all somehow make sense? Or am I in the minority with my point of view?





Sounds good, maybe if I get desperate I'll order one from you. :x





My unit snaps into center too, but if I pull it back, it kinda moves off center (slight left, or right) unless I put some effort into keeping it straight, which I don't even feel, but have to see how the ship moves. My old stick goes straight back, unless you actually move it slight to the side. I love the stability and stiffness of the T16000M, but that is a bit of a problem. Also the hat is not comfortable, but theoretically I can fix this by putting something on it.

So does your T16000M not have that issue? Also when you bought it, was the ball in the base oily?


- - -


So I've been flying around in Star Citizen a bit and I have to say I do like the way the T16000M goes actually, love the stability and resistance that feels almost like a real flight stick (and love the twist). Not sure how it'll do in dog fighting, but dog fighting is actually not my main concern with space games. However, it is not a very comfortable shape and I have this pitch centering issue. As said, no other options available as far as I can tell.

I don't think the Space Shuttle had twist in the joystick? never heard about that, however I could just be wrong.

Space shuttle control system (PDF)

 

[KestrelPi]

Occasionally I consider switching from the Thrustmaster T.Flight Hotas X to the X52 Pro. But I have to admit the Thrustmaster has features I've become extremely accustomed to that I don't think or I'm not sure the X52 has.

I love that the throttle has a centrepoint so that I can use it for forward and reverse thrust without switching. I love the rocker on the back of the throttle that I use for lateral thrust in the air, and actually for steering while driving around (so that I can drive one handed and use the stick entirely for air control). And I just like the feel of the thing, I'm surprised it's so cheap actually. And the way I can fit it together to play on my lap or keep the stick and throttle separate.

I know it's considered an entry level stick, but whenever I look to upgrade, I fret about the nice stuff the other models don't have. I sorta wish there was a thrustmaster model one up from this with the same features but better built and with some more buttons.