The Quest To Find Raxxla
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You are welcome to either
I know about that. Found a reference to supercruise on the Venusian's logs (someone had brought up generation ships as possible clues) and now trying to somehow date those events to see it fits the INRA reverse engineering story or means we've had supercruise for a really long time.
A cunning plan
Following on from the John Milton Conundrum; if we extrapolate along a trajectory starting from Pandemonium via Sol; but apply the John Milton equation of x 3; we identify Akras.
This is based upon the assumption where Milton identifies in Paradise Lost, the distance from Hells gate to the gate of Heaven as being 3 times the radius (or mini diameters) of the celestial sphere.
If we accept Pandemonium as the Celestial South Pole, and Sol as the axis, if this calculation is correct, based upon the distance from Sol to Pandemonium, this ought to place the Celestial North Pole at: -68.3125 / 228.0625 / -91.9375 = Akras. *established now as incorrect.
Äkräs (also Ägröi, Egres) is a Finnish god of fertility and the turnip, the protector of beans, peas, cabbage!
Based upon its absurd naming it’s highly unlikely that Akras is the intended Celestial North Pole. I was there last night, twas a dull place of no importance. This draws attention to the assumption that Sol, is not the true Axis or that the distance attributed is incorrect.
It may also be, that FD are not aware of this John Milton calculation or it has been misinterpreted by this Cmdr.
There is also the issue that this concept is reliant upon the existence of a Milton sphere of influence, for this I’ve utilised Pandemonium to determine the distance; it cannot be Achenar (2296) which would seem the logical choice, but Achenar is actually further away than Pandemonium.
If following the Milton universe exactly then the Crystalline Sphere would not contain Pandemonium, which ought to be at least 1 radius aware from Sol…so this is primarily an assumption.
The prevalence of the Yggdrasil system and Norse runes systems does open this up to a much wider context. On they’re own they hold little relevance other than assisting to denote the diameter of the Milton mobile, therefore it either identifies there is no Celestial North Pole, or that a Yggdrasil system is being utilised as the primary axis, or Raxxla is shaped like a turnip.
Of course if not a turnip, then at least we have a Celestial pole, if FD are following the logic attributed to Miltons model universe then all one needs do is follow it upwards…
Following on from the John Milton Conundrum; if we extrapolate along a trajectory starting from Pandemonium via Sol; but apply the John Milton equation of x 3; we identify Akras.
This is based upon the assumption where Milton identifies in Paradise Lost, the distance from Hells gate to the gate of Heaven as being 3 times the radius (or mini diameters) of the celestial sphere.
If we accept Pandemonium as the Celestial South Pole, and Sol as the axis, if this calculation is correct, based upon the distance from Sol to Pandemonium, this ought to place the Celestial North Pole at: -68.3125 / 228.0625 / -91.9375 = Akras. *established now as incorrect.
Äkräs (also Ägröi, Egres) is a Finnish god of fertility and the turnip, the protector of beans, peas, cabbage!
Based upon its absurd naming it’s highly unlikely that Akras is the intended Celestial North Pole. I was there last night, twas a dull place of no importance. This draws attention to the assumption that Sol, is not the true Axis or that the distance attributed is incorrect.
It may also be, that FD are not aware of this John Milton calculation or it has been misinterpreted by this Cmdr.
There is also the issue that this concept is reliant upon the existence of a Milton sphere of influence, for this I’ve utilised Pandemonium to determine the distance; it cannot be Achenar (2296) which would seem the logical choice, but Achenar is actually further away than Pandemonium.
If following the Milton universe exactly then the Crystalline Sphere would not contain Pandemonium, which ought to be at least 1 radius aware from Sol…so this is primarily an assumption.
The prevalence of the Yggdrasil system and Norse runes systems does open this up to a much wider context. On they’re own they hold little relevance other than assisting to denote the diameter of the Milton mobile, therefore it either identifies there is no Celestial North Pole, or that a Yggdrasil system is being utilised as the primary axis, or Raxxla is shaped like a turnip.
Of course if not a turnip, then at least we have a Celestial pole, if FD are following the logic attributed to Miltons model universe then all one needs do is follow it upwards…
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You've finally entered your Turnip phase XD
How much would your theory change if Sirius was the axis?
I've been doing a lot of work on trying to reconstruct the narrative 'backstory' using the bits we know, and Sirius is - as we all know - a stupendously large player in galactic history.
The theory works by knowing the axis, then the boundary of the ‘crystalline sphere’ (our universe by Miltons abstract concept); Pandemonium is the Celestial South Pole. Which sits outside this sphere below ‘Chaos’. It’s effectively 2 spheres one within the other.
If you know the diameter of the Crystalline Sphere then you know its radius. Pandemonium ought to be at least 1 radius away from the outer rim of the sphere; the gate of heaven ought to be x3 this distance from Pandemonium. *edit this is now known to be incorrect, this distance should be attributed from the centre eg Sol.
At present we don’t know where this Crystalline Sphere extends, I’m presuming it’s Achenar via the attribution of 2296 as a clue to a sphere of influence.
But Pandemonium is closer than Achenar which technically places it inside the sphere.
Technically it’s irrelevant as if FD were to utilise this theory then technically you don’t need to know where this hypothetical boundary is; all one needs do actually is follow the celestial pole upwards… that if it’s on the pole, it might not be…
Milton’s text is vague it that relationship, it’s very abstract, and some place these points of interest ’just off’ the pole so it could be anywhere really!
And of course this theory falls down fast as it’s 100% reliant on Milton, it’s highly likely if true it’s more likely to be an archeological artefact, of either a half completed concept, or nerfed narrative… or only partially reliant on Milton… the rest could be Lovecraft etc it’s only part of the puzzle; so all in all very likely just Space-Madness!
*bell rings
It might be a location at an equal distance between Pandemonium and Sol; mathematically that ought to be the boundary of the Crystalline sphere!
A midpoint is the exact center point between two defined points. To find this center point, midpoint formula is applied. In 3-dimensional space, the midpoint between an example (x1, y1, z1) and (x2, y2, z1) is (x1+x2 )/2,(y1+y2 )/2,(z1+z2 )/2
Resolving to = 17.078125, -57.015625, 22.984375
Extrapolating that you get: -17.078125 / 57.015625 / -22.984375 = LHS 2522…as Heaven’s gate!
Obviously utter nonsense, I prefer the Turnip idea…
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The Venusian logs specifically say this:
The Venusian didn't have Supercruise, the ships attacking it did. Some Gen ships do know about "outside society" and choose not to get involved. The Golconda and dredgers taught us that. There's no reason at all that the Venusian wasn't fully aware of "the outside world" and all the advancements in drive technology.
Supercruise is a function of FSD, and we know that FSD became publicly available around 3290. Galnet source. As far as I'm aware Supercruise and FSD are synonymous and therefore the Venusian logs must date from post 3290. Problem solved.
I'm not saying there hasn't been a mass conspiracy (we know there has been at least one), but I'm not sure this is a smoking gun for another one
I never said Venusian had supercruise. I actually had highlighted there is a journal from First Encounters implicating the oldest of the INRAs, Imperial Navy Research Arm. Now are Bubble ships Imperial-speak for generation ships? Or did this happen right at the end of generation ship era. Casimir drives are linked to Bubble ships. Regardless, it seems the that Feds and Imperials were working together to destroy colony ships. The speed matching part of the journal is what makes me think this is supercruise.The Venusian logs specifically say this:
The Venusian didn't have Supercruise, the ships attacking it did. Some Gen ships do know about "outside society" and choose not to get involved. The Golconda and dredgers taught us that. There's no reason at all that the Venusian wasn't fully aware of "the outside world" and all the advancements in drive technology.
Supercruise is a function of FSD, and we know that FSD became publicly available around 3290. Galnet source. As far as I'm aware Supercruise and FSD are synonymous and therefore the Venusian logs must date from post 3290. Problem solved.
I'm not saying there hasn't been a mass conspiracy (we know there has been at least one), but I'm not sure this is a smoking gun for another one
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If you're using FFE lore, then you're on your own I'm afraid
Brute force doesn't necessarily mean to attack the problem by using 7 nested loops.
A slightly faster algorithm for the problem "find 7 systems that form a 3D-cross" may look like this:
1) Iterate i1 over all known systems in region of interest
2) Iterate i2 over all known systems in region of interest, where i2 > i1 (to test each pair only once)
3) Calc the point "goal" in the middle between systems[i1] and systems[i2].
Iterate i3 over all systems that could be close.
Use grid or octree to limit the search for systems in the vicinity of point "goal".
If any systems are within distance tolerance of goal, remember each triple formed by systems[i1], systems[i2] and 1 system more-or-less in the middle between the two.
4) After you have collected all such triples, you search all triples for sets of 3 triples that share the same system in the middle.
5) For each result, you check if the 3 triples form a cross (meaning angles of 90 degrees +/- tolerance).
Relax, it's only the Terry Pratchett approach to problem solving:If you're using FFE lore, then you're on your own I'm afraid
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness."
I have already proven it was one continuous Universe. Earth is in the lore of every single game at minimum. Even the Codex states Lakon Spaceways is from Sol originally. The modern version of the oldest ship is the Type-6 Transporter (originally known just as Transporter in the first game). Even Lavian Brandy is made in Oak barrels from Earth per in-game description. The naming scheme is really a trivial difference and I have found pretty much all the major lore systems in Elite Dangerous. It is fair game for explaining away quirks in the lore as far as I can tell. By the way, the Earth being present in all games is an absolute requirement for Holdstock version of Raxxla to be real. We're pretty much down to locating where that take leads us. Soontill being a cover story is the other requirement.
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The problem here is Frontier did not. The Codex is actually got my back that everything is canon. This is the in-game description of Lavian Brandy:
Cheers!
Cheers!
If you'd like to work on something that's been puzzling me a lot, and may actually fall into your area of expertise, consider this very strange mystery:
Why were the Generations ships made at all? and how did Earth send out 70,000 of them!?!?!
It was less than 30 years between the first gen ship launch (2097) and the development of FTL (2130). We're told that 70,000 gen ships were launched from Earth. Presumably few/no gen ships were launched much after 2130 (why would anyone invest in a gen ship when FTL was proven).
- That means we have something like 6 Gen ships launched every singe day between 2097 and 2130.
- Even if you assume that Gen ships were still made and launched for 30 years after FTL was discovered, then you're talking about 3 Gen ships per day, every day, for 60 years - that's still absolutely insane numbers.
- Even if you extend this timeline and say that Gen ships were used for 100 full years after FTL was developed, then you're talking about something like 1.5 generation ship launched per day, every day, for a hundred and thirty years.
Imagine that. Imagine the insanely huge material, technical, and humanitarian industry that would go into making and launching ships capable of supporting thousands of people for dozens or hundreds of generations - every single day of the year for at least decades using basically the same tech we have today. Just shuttling up thousands of people from Earth and getting them to the Gen ship, how many space-launches is that? hundreds, maybe thousands of launches from Earth every single day for decades.
Michael Brooks said the gen ships used tech that's basically what we have now (in 2022, (or rather 2015)), though he includes fusion torches in that list. So we're not talking super-sci-fi space tech at this point. We're saying that these insanely massive construction projects were made with basically the same tech we're using to make Artemis and SpaceX stuff now.
I can't figure out:
a) Why this many generation ships were launched at all.
b) Where the resources and funding for these gen ships came from in post WW3 Earth.
My assumption... is that something in history around the end of the 21st Century was the 'reason' for what seems to have been a desperate mass evacuation of the Sol system (not just Earth, but the entire Sol system, since a gen ship is a self-sustaining space station, if it was just that Earth was dying they could easily just go into orbit or colonise the other bodies in Sol, no need to go interstellar at all.)
Thoughts?
I saw something on here recently that said generation ships were being sent out until about 2400, and that hyperdrive was too unreliable for transporting people until around that time.
I think the link was a transcription of an interview with Michael Brookes.
70,000 still seems like a lot, but it definitely wasn't limited to as short a timespan as 33 years.
Your answer is what happened immediately following World War III. My document on the case against Salvation has the specifics but the population dropped rapidly. Real humans fled because what they didn't understand was the "people" that died were androids, cyborgs, and artificial intelligences. This is Mycoid. The Imperial Navy Research Arm later cures Jaques of a condition that attacked his non-human parts and that is where the Mycoid came from that was tested at Sohalia. The Club even then were already preparing for an eventual meeting with the Guardians. There must have been relics of theirs left on Earth.
From the Frontier gazetteer:
From "..All that Glisters" on Jaques:
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That quote would be nice if you can find it. There's a lot of... creative interpretations using alternative lore sources here, so 2400 needs some backup.
I did the transcription of the interview with MB (others have too), the spoiler tag here is a repost from my notes (typing errors abound, beware!) because I cna't find my post on it where I'd corrected the typing errors!:
13:11
DJ: How much of other races other than the Thrgoids ... afftected the deelopment of the human race during the last thousand years. Is there anything we've not been really aware of..?
MB: We've been aware of an alien race for quite some time with the find on Mars back in the 22nd Century. I think it was, or the 21st..
DJ: It's when they first established the colony on mars sin't it, they find the fossil?
MB: So knowing that there's alien races out there isn't a new thing. The interesting thing with Thargoids ...
Discussion goes on to discuss how the majority of humanity didn't know about/care/believe in the First Thargoid War.
MB: many people aren't convinced it was actually a real thing.
DJ: See that shocks me, I mean alongside that there's the artefact that was fouhnd in space [MB: Yep] Now I know that nobody knows where it was from but do we know what it was, because all that we've got written in the timeline is "a relic".
MB (smiling heavily, nodding): Ahhh... certainly nothing that's ever been publically (field?) about it...
DJ (laughing): Fair enough, so we'll stick with 'relic'.
15:27
DJ: When was it humans first left Sol, do we have a date on it?
MB: We do, I'm going to refer to my notes for this, just so I get it right, So the first intersteallar colony was on Tau Ceti and that was in the 2150s.
DJ and MB Discuss the colony and the problems that happened there.
16:24
DJ: What propulsion were they using when they first left Sol?
MB: So back then it was mostly slower than light drives like ion prpulsion, so not too dissimilar to the technologies that NASA is using today, fusion torches but they tended to be for the very big ships like generation ships that could carry enough fuel to make them worthwhile, so something similar in mind to the Daedalus project with its deuterium pellets, and of course there were experimetns with hyperspace, but they varied in success, so they weren't considerd reliable enough for large transportation which is why the early transports used the colony ships.
DJ: This is something we often wornder about becaus they were sending probes through hyperspce [MB: Yep] quite soon after discovering it werent they? but it's a couple of hundred years before hyperspace use seems to become normal for human carrying craft
MB: Yeah hink that's simply safety factors. Obvious there were a few crazy people that were happy to jump in and make a jump but they tended to disappear or there would be some unknown accident or some trace of them would be found, so it's like with any technology, when you're at the forefront of it there's a bit of risk involved, especially if you're trying to translate accross lightyears of space.
DJ: ... This is one of the ones (holes) we'd discussed, why it is that there's that 200-odd year gap [MB: yep], and we'd assumed it was just trying to figure out how to send a human through safely, essentially.
MB: Well, its large numbers of humans, and the bigger the mass the more energy you need and you need to have efficient methods of actually producing enough energy to accutally do the jump.
DJ: How much of other races other than the Thrgoids ... afftected the deelopment of the human race during the last thousand years. Is there anything we've not been really aware of..?
MB: We've been aware of an alien race for quite some time with the find on Mars back in the 22nd Century. I think it was, or the 21st..
DJ: It's when they first established the colony on mars sin't it, they find the fossil?
MB: So knowing that there's alien races out there isn't a new thing. The interesting thing with Thargoids ...
Discussion goes on to discuss how the majority of humanity didn't know about/care/believe in the First Thargoid War.
MB: many people aren't convinced it was actually a real thing.
DJ: See that shocks me, I mean alongside that there's the artefact that was fouhnd in space [MB: Yep] Now I know that nobody knows where it was from but do we know what it was, because all that we've got written in the timeline is "a relic".
MB (smiling heavily, nodding): Ahhh... certainly nothing that's ever been publically (field?) about it...
DJ (laughing): Fair enough, so we'll stick with 'relic'.
15:27
DJ: When was it humans first left Sol, do we have a date on it?
MB: We do, I'm going to refer to my notes for this, just so I get it right, So the first intersteallar colony was on Tau Ceti and that was in the 2150s.
DJ and MB Discuss the colony and the problems that happened there.
16:24
DJ: What propulsion were they using when they first left Sol?
MB: So back then it was mostly slower than light drives like ion prpulsion, so not too dissimilar to the technologies that NASA is using today, fusion torches but they tended to be for the very big ships like generation ships that could carry enough fuel to make them worthwhile, so something similar in mind to the Daedalus project with its deuterium pellets, and of course there were experimetns with hyperspace, but they varied in success, so they weren't considerd reliable enough for large transportation which is why the early transports used the colony ships.
DJ: This is something we often wornder about becaus they were sending probes through hyperspce [MB: Yep] quite soon after discovering it werent they? but it's a couple of hundred years before hyperspace use seems to become normal for human carrying craft
MB: Yeah hink that's simply safety factors. Obvious there were a few crazy people that were happy to jump in and make a jump but they tended to disappear or there would be some unknown accident or some trace of them would be found, so it's like with any technology, when you're at the forefront of it there's a bit of risk involved, especially if you're trying to translate accross lightyears of space.
DJ: ... This is one of the ones (holes) we'd discussed, why it is that there's that 200-odd year gap [MB: yep], and we'd assumed it was just trying to figure out how to send a human through safely, essentially.
MB: Well, its large numbers of humans, and the bigger the mass the more energy you need and you need to have efficient methods of actually producing enough energy to accutally do the jump.
This is what I mean - Michael has clearly put thought into it, and for whatever reason, decided that 70,000 generation ships is a reasonable number?!?!
He also doesn't comment here on DJ's comment about there being a "200 year gap" in the lore around that time - might be nothing, but... well it's weird.
If you read this Dev update from Michael Brooks, there's a lot of weird confusion here with dates:
This was posted in 2015, and it says that "many thousands of ‘generation ships’ left the safety of Earth beginning in the 24th century onwards".
The overall idea matches, but the date (24th century) doesn't match this Galnet article (presumably penned by Brooks too:
So what's we seem to be seeing here is a lot of confusion around these early dates.
And yet we also have the information from the Codex that Raxxla was already a known circulating myth from prior 2296 - which is on the cusp of the 24th century.
Even if we assume that Gen ships were still dispatched for 'centuries' after 2097 (for some bizarre reason). The question remains - why? Why send gen ships out at all? and doubly so decades, centuries after FTL was invented - even if it wasn't yet commercially viable, the fact that it exists means that Gen ships will be long overtaken before they reach the goal (which we're also told did happen to most of them). Even if we say that Gen ships launched for 300 years after the first, taking us to 2397 (24th Century) then that's still over 230 ships launched per year, an incredible amount of ships to construct every year for 300 years straight.
Edit: I forgot to say, notice too that in the Galnet post above it says "there are believed to be somewhere in the region of 70,000 generation ships coursing through the galaxy", not that only 70,000 were launched, but that 70k ships are still travelling, I just used that as my lower estimate number for the maths, this implies there were many more than that.
Edit 3: So so sorry, I mean to include this too from Galnet:
This confirms the Galnet statement above, that Gen ships were launched prior to FTL, and then manned FTL ships overtook Gen ships - so again, the idea of still sending gen ships out after FTL was viable for travel (even on a small scale) is very, very strange and doesn't make sense.
Essentially I feel like one of two things has happened to muddy the waters:
a) (in-game )History was changed via a conspiracy (similar to the conspiracy that redacted the entire first Thargoid war)
b) (out of game) The writers made some significant changes to "something" in the early part of the timeline that required the shuffling around of a lot of dates and timescales and ideas.
Both of these lean towards the idea that there's something we're not seeing in that early part of history - the part where we know Raxxla was first discovered.
Edit: @CMDRCorrMorningstarFelian I can't even...
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https://community.elitedangerous.com/en/node/353
‘Some will know from our timeline that many thousands of ‘generation ships’ left the safety of Earth beginning in beginning in the 24th century onwards’
‘In those days when faster-than-light communication didn’t exist, many of these potential settlers faced terrible risks alone, travelling thousands of light years into the black’….
‘The plight of The Missing is just one of the things that will become more prominent over the coming year and the Commanders of the Pilots Federation will be pivotal in solving these mysteries. You can expect more news on this soon’…
I wonder how much of this got exaggerated or misquoted over time, how much was retconned, I remember when this was posted, the indication at the end felt like ‘more was to come’ but it didn’t, at least not to my perception, leading to Braben’s leak about ‘number stations’… like many other elements in game, I feel it’s partly inconsistent, partly half written and likely other elements were later cobbled together by other writers when certain employees left ED?
‘Some will know from our timeline that many thousands of ‘generation ships’ left the safety of Earth beginning in beginning in the 24th century onwards’
‘In those days when faster-than-light communication didn’t exist, many of these potential settlers faced terrible risks alone, travelling thousands of light years into the black’….
‘The plight of The Missing is just one of the things that will become more prominent over the coming year and the Commanders of the Pilots Federation will be pivotal in solving these mysteries. You can expect more news on this soon’…
I wonder how much of this got exaggerated or misquoted over time, how much was retconned, I remember when this was posted, the indication at the end felt like ‘more was to come’ but it didn’t, at least not to my perception, leading to Braben’s leak about ‘number stations’… like many other elements in game, I feel it’s partly inconsistent, partly half written and likely other elements were later cobbled together by other writers when certain employees left ED?
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I agree. This is why I chose to not treat the old statements / novels as 'facts' anymore, I rather have it in the back of my mind as background knowledge.
I think I also agree with some of you who says the Codex is the only true source we have today, so I'll be avoiding the other sources.
Not saying other folks are wrong, that would be a bad idea (tm). We need the alternate paths, because we have now idea still after 7-8 years.
We (individually) just have to chose what sources & theories use to create the path we take to find Raxxla.
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I mean I get the feeling but the Bubble got populated between 2230 - 2412 (Lave was likely one of the last launched generation ships). This means most were successful. Though, per EDSM there are 20,622 populated systems within 5,000 LY of Sol leaving almost 50,000 generation ships unaccounted for at present. Even Phekda was settled via generation ships per system description:
It just means the initiative to settle the Bubble and its' extended halo of populated systems was successful beyond expectations.
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