The realistic approach to BGS.

[TheMegaTurnip]

So the BGS..

The bane of many Cmdr's existence.

{DISCAIMER}: This is an open only advocating post, for the reasons contained within. (I feel the need to point out these home truths as noone on the other postings will even reply to my comments.)

BGS is both a PvE and PVP activity, in such that it's PvE, until you start affecting someone else's game, then unfortunatly for the deniers, it becomes a PvP activity.

Thats just how it is. The nature of the beast if you will.

Hence why it should be open only, anything that has the significance enough to effect other people's game, should NOT, be able to be manipulated from the closed doors of PG, or solo modes.

Why you might ask?

Not everyone has the want to grind thousands of missions/NPC's to beat off an attack, some people, in fact, quite a large number, would like to see the attackers and know the ships in play, the methods in play, and the size of the attacking force. All these things are ESSENTIAL to making a concerted effort to halt the attack are abcent.

I might add to this and say that if you are at war with another PvE faction (Which most of them are), You obviously are not going to be shot down continuously by the folks in the other faction, because they have the same mindset as you. Moreover, the higher the volume of players, PvE OR PvP in open play, means the odds of you getting shot at drop SIGNIFICANTLY.

However, if you are in a group looking to destabilise a PmF of PvPers, with PvE builds and tactics, you will loose, doing it from solo pretty much denies that particular group thier chance to fight back with their chosen playstyle, in fact, you are then dictating to them, how they must play the game.

Thats not how the BGS is supposed to work.

The BGS should be accesible to EVERYONE, in whichever playstyle capacity they see fit to use. By keeping it avalible in PG/Solo, you are effectively both shutting players out from it, and causing a good portion, to simply not see the point in bothering, allowing thier factions to be made obsolete in hours by a group that refuses to interact with the people they are, for want of a better term. Fisting.

That is not conducive to decent gameplay for the community, nor is it conducive to any sort of balance in the power struggles in the galaxy WHATSOEVER.

This needs to change. Fairness should be resumed as far as this aspect of gameplay goes.

I have no problem doing both PvE and PvP, but I do want to know what it is I'm dealing with when it comes to the BGS, My potential opponents, the size of thier group, thier methods, etc, all these things allow for a more cohesive game, and also allow a measure of fairness within it. It would also deny the vast factions taking over at thier total lesure. If for no other reason, that they can be interrupted (A last resort in most cases), by ships outfitted enough to remove them from thier current activity, whilst efforts are made elsewhere to repaiar thier damage.

Lets make the BGS great again. Open only it, and let a truly organic galaxy form, where power struggles are accesible and allow for dynamic wars and conflicts, and yes, alliances.

EvE and VO did it. Why should Elite not get the same fantastic level of player cohesion and gameplay?

Enough with the modes. Make the game what it has the potential to be.

(And for the love of all thats holy, PLEASE stop borking instancing every update and make it stable enough to handle such a BGS)

Over and out. o7

 

[Marra Morgan]

So the BGS..

The bane of many Cmdr's existence.

Oh, I quite enjoy it

Then again, I have learned a fair bit about it over the years, to the point where I know how to direct a reasonable defence against an attack from any mode - Open, PG, or Solo - or any platform for that matter. So you see, the things which are a bane to some, are not to me or anyone else with a good understanding of the BGS mechanics.

That said, there's always room for improvement - in the Dangerous Discussion sub, Jane Turner is trying to collect the reasons why some players want an open-only BGS and discussing whether their concerns can be addressed within the existing framework. Let's face it, FDev aren't going to make it open-only, so it seems like a sensible approach to take.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Oh, I quite enjoy it

Then again, I have learned a fair bit about it over the years, to the point where I know how to direct a reasonable defence against an attack from any mode - Open, PG, or Solo - or any platform for that matter. So you see, the things which are a bane to some, are not to me or anyone else with a good understanding of the BGS mechanics.

That said, there's always room for improvement - in the Dangerous Discussion sub, Jane Turner is trying to collect the reasons why some players want an open-only BGS and discussing whether their concerns can be addressed within the existing framework. Let's face it, FDev aren't going to make it open-only, so it seems like a sensible approach to take.

Fair enough, Though please do note how you said "Years", the average player has other stuff to do even in game, over learning all the ins and outs of the BGS, a small group also cannot learn the methods as quickly as a larger group, usually who won't tell very many. Don't get me wrong, Me and one pal, could smash a war with a PmF with ease, but other aspects are'nt so easily learned nor delt with.

It also doesn't change the fact that by keeping it in it's current state you are blocking certain playstyles from taking part. For something that is supposed to be enjoyed by everyone, thats counterproductive to say the least. Yeah, I think they will eventually, ony once they realise there are going to be absolutley 0 repurcussions for doing so. Noone is going to leave, noone is going to sue, it's all smoke and mirrors. They sooner they stop being scared of thier playerbase, the better.

Also, got a link?

o7

 

[Marra Morgan]

Also, got a link?

Sure - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...IF-but-WHY-discussion-around-modes-in-the-BGS

Have a careful read of Jane's OP to understand what's being asked - the thread's going downhill with the usual stubbornness from a few individuals and I fear the point is becoming lost.

o7

 

[Misty_Dark]

I am not so sure about BGS to be open only, as there are still lots of other factors that could affect that you would not see the other group anyway.... You play at different times is one such obvious thing for example... or you might have blocked each other before, and thus preventing you to end up in the same instance....


But if get down to the point you try to solve is to know your opposition, so perhaps every tick, we get a list of all CMDRs involved in doing actions that had an effect on the changes....

We know BGS works on a per transaction, so we could make a list like this:
Faction AB:
CMDR A transcations: 5
CMDR B transcations: 3
CMDR C transcations: 1

Faction BC:
CMDR C transcations: 15
CMDR D transcations: 8
CMDR A transcations: 4

Faction CD:
CMDR E transcations: 7
CMDR F transcations: 3
CMDR A transcations: 2

etc, etc. From this we can see that CMDR A probably was just doing any random missions, so probably not invested, but the others seems to be pushing a specific faction....


Or we could make a list that only list how much of the influence change was contributed to a specific player.



Now atleast we can see what is going on, and by who. Instead of today, where stuff just can "happen" and you have no clue if it is a one man show or a big group at work...




Also in my suggestions to make Elite feel more alive, I would like to see NPC ships actually mimic the stuff players do. So even if I cannot see any other CMDR, I would be able to see those "tell tale NPCs" and what they are up to. and follow them and disrupt their business, that would in turn spawn NPCs that mimic what I am doing...

So if someone is flying their unshielded Cutter, alot to do something that have huge influence on the BGS, I would start to see the same kind of Cutters in my session doing this. So I could now follow and intercept these ships. and if I do it enough times, this would give a raise to NPCs doing the same towards the other CMDR. So now the CMDR have a choice, keep going at and try to evade the increased number of NPC Pirates, or adapt his ship to be able to fight those, or go somewhere else. Their choice.
Just as their actions could have unwanted influence on my gameplay, my actions could in the same wave have unwanted influence on their game play. Is this bad? I do not think so.
I think this is way better than forcing all of us into Open, where I could be a "killer machine" compared to the other CMDR, who have about 0% chance to survive an encounter against me...
Now atleast that CMDR will face NPC that are not "Elite" or in a max engineered killing ships. But they will have to adapt to the situation. And if they prove to be successful in killing those NPC Pirates, I will now start to see encounter more and more ranked NPCs, that will give me harder and harder fights... So what started as a defenceless Cutter, that basically exploded just by looking at it, have now thanks to the other CMDR actions and adaptation, turned into a shielded Cutter, with top notch weaponry with an Elite+ ranked NPC manning this very capable cargo ship, giving me a good challenge.




And this system would not care what mode anyone is playing in. The only thing being in Solo/Private Group does, is to shield you from direct contact other players, i know this will upset some players. But we now get a way to identify what is going on, and actually do something about it....


This can also be applied to Communty Goals and PowerPlay, to get a similar feedback loop of NPC ships doing what player are doing...

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I am not so sure about BGS to be open only, as there are still lots of other factors that could affect that you would not see the other group anyway.... You play at different times is one such obvious thing for example... or you might have blocked each other before, and thus preventing you to end up in the same instance....


But if get down to the point you try to solve is to know your opposition, so perhaps every tick, we get a list of all CMDRs involved in doing actions that had an effect on the changes....

We know BGS works on a per transaction, so we could make a list like this:
Faction AB:
CMDR A transcations: 5
CMDR B transcations: 3
CMDR C transcations: 1

Faction BC:
CMDR C transcations: 15
CMDR D transcations: 8
CMDR A transcations: 4

Faction CD:
CMDR E transcations: 7
CMDR F transcations: 3
CMDR A transcations: 2

etc, etc. From this we can see that CMDR A probably was just doing any random missions, so probably not invested, but the others seems to be pushing a specific faction....


Or we could make a list that only list how much of the influence change was contributed to a specific player.



Now atleast we can see what is going on, and by who. Instead of today, where stuff just can "happen" and you have no clue if it is a one man show or a big group at work...




Also in my suggestions to make Elite feel more alive, I would like to see NPC ships actually mimic the stuff players do. So even if I cannot see any other CMDR, I would be able to see those "tell tale NPCs" and what they are up to. and follow them and disrupt their business, that would in turn spawn NPCs that mimic what I am doing...

So if someone is flying their unshielded Cutter, alot to do something that have huge influence on the BGS, I would start to see the same kind of Cutters in my session doing this. So I could now follow and intercept these ships. and if I do it enough times, this would give a raise to NPCs doing the same towards the other CMDR. So now the CMDR have a choice, keep going at and try to evade the increased number of NPC Pirates, or adapt his ship to be able to fight those, or go somewhere else. Their choice.
Just as their actions could have unwanted influence on my gameplay, my actions could in the same wave have unwanted influence on their game play. Is this bad? I do not think so.
I think this is way better than forcing all of us into Open, where I could be a "killer machine" compared to the other CMDR, who have about 0% chance to survive an encounter against me...
Now atleast that CMDR will face NPC that are not "Elite" or in a max engineered killing ships. But they will have to adapt to the situation. And if they prove to be successful in killing those NPC Pirates, I will now start to see encounter more and more ranked NPCs, that will give me harder and harder fights... So what started as a defenceless Cutter, that basically exploded just by looking at it, have now thanks to the other CMDR actions and adaptation, turned into a shielded Cutter, with top notch weaponry with an Elite+ ranked NPC manning this very capable cargo ship, giving me a good challenge.




And this system would not care what mode anyone is playing in. The only thing being in Solo/Private Group does, is to shield you from direct contact other players, i know this will upset some players. But we now get a way to identify what is going on, and actually do something about it....


This can also be applied to Communty Goals and PowerPlay, to get a similar feedback loop of NPC ships doing what player are doing...

I will strongly resist any suggestion that other players be able to track my activity within the game.
What I do and how I choose to do it is nobody's business but my own.

 

[SciTrekker]

Info doesn't need to be by Cmdr, but showing what the buckets have in them overall would suffice. Remove the silent auction format of the Fill The Buckets mini-game and I'd like to see the display of these bucket counts updated more than once per day.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

The problem with "open only BGS" is that *everything* is connected to the BGS.

It therefore either means "open only everything" (obviously not going to happen) or "masses of mode-switching exploits that stick to the letter but not the spirit of it allow you to be attacked by ships you can't see" (what was the point).

For example: someone wants to attack your influence in safety.
1) Switch to Solo
2) Fly to an unmarked bit of a ring system
3) Relog to Open
4) When the one miner shows up, destroy it
5) Destroy all the police who respond to the crime.
6) High-wake out when the ATR get too much ... or just boost away from them all, log out when clear, and repeat.
All the influence-relevant actions take place in Open but there's absolutely no way even with a complete patrol to stop them.
(Equivalent things exist for other types of influence actions)

It also opens up all sorts of non-influence-related exploits that would make PG/Solo actively beneficial for certain playstyles even if (especially if!) you were in a system which didn't have other players in it anyway. For example...

Currently (and in Open-only under the proposals)
1) Buy Palladium
2) Hand in high-value Palladium mission
3) Take next mission
4) Find you've run out of Palladium because it restocks really slowly
5) Look for a new system to buy it from, taking time and reducing profits

In Solo/PG under the proposals
1) Buy Palladium
2) Hand in high-value Palladium mission
3) Take next mission
4) Buy the same Palladium again - no BGS effect means static markets
5) Profit.