The Star Citizen Thread v5

[briguy168]

No.

There's bad management that's obviously bad management.

There's stuff that could either be bad management or deliberately dodgy.

There's stuff that's definitely dodgy.

EDIT: Clarity. "Definitely dodgy" = a deliberate scam.

So now your back-peddling and by trying to make a slight more nuanced distinction between what is invariably called a scam and dodgy practices.

ANOTHER EDIT: You also need to look at patterns and consistency. Is a particular bad practise a one-off or is it systemic? Also, how transparent is the other party? CIG are actually quite opaque in many ways. Yeah, you see the dev stuff, but that's basic. What about the massive, ongoing, mocapping? WHat about the milestones? What about basic financial openness to the people who's money they'reusing?

Got it?

The only pattern that I have observed is CIG telling us what decisions that have been made and why. Most of them I agree with and make a lot of sense when you factor in everything else.

CIG is more translucent than opaque and why even bring up the financials when you aren't an investor nor are you a shareholder so your rights to know that information is forfeit; it is 100% CIG's right to decide what they want to show and they have decided to not show any financials simply because armchair accountants will cherry pick anything within to justify their position when they have no context for why a thing may have costed so much.....end of discussion. The sooner you can get that through your head the faster this conversation can proceed to it's inevitable conclusion of you writing all this off because you cannot fathom that what you arguing isn't at all what is happening and go back to calling fans of this game cultists or proclaiming the other myriad of accusations levied against it.

Now, when a company does things that look like bad management but do it for a prolonged period then it starts to look deliberate.

Me? CIG got the benefit of the doubt on the honesty question (so, basically, aiming for something more then they're competent to do)... until I saw a recent interview with CR who mentioned that goals were linked to current income: here at 9:21 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvule1cD_zk. This implies that they now know that promises that they are yet to deliver were not deliverable when they said that they were (aka all doable at $65 million) which is dishonest.

No that is called underestimating things. What you are up in arms about is CIG not tempering your expectations by coming out and saying something like "due to the burgeoning scope, what was pitched will take longer and cost more to make". Why do you need a company to acknowledge that; why can't you put it all together and come to that same conclusion; why does there have to be a conspiracy?

Now, dishonest doesn't necessarily mean that they're scamming - aka taking money off you without providing what they promised - but it's a very bad sign. Very.

Which goes back to what I posted earlier, all of this stems from your subjective sense of what is right and wrong. Calling something a scam because it goes against what you value as honest is disingenuous and furthers a narrative that is completely false and supremely muddies the water for an honest OBJECTIVE discussion about this game. If there is evidence that undeniably shows CIG malfeasance then post it and allow the evidence prove the claim and dictate the conversation.

 

[Marak]

I see Hi-Ban and friends are hard on shutting down discussion due of us being angry with SC?

Well, suck it up. People have rights to have negative opinions about SC. CR has full permission to prove us wrong. Many of us will be happy if that would happen, even if partially. But as days, months and years passes by, few of us actually believe that ever will happen.

We have a right to be        off. We were promised something awesome and look at what is offered, a crappy tech demo for a few years and the faint possibility of an MVP sometime in the future.

This is NOT what was pitched in the Kickstarter.

 

[Hi-Ban]

Your right about the lack of similarity between star citizen and freelancer, there's no big developer to kick Roberts off the project and sort out the mess this time.

You mean big publisher?

 

[Asp Explorer]

it is 100% CIG's right to decide what they want to show and they have decided to not show any financials simply because armchair accountants will cherry pick anything within to justify their position when they have no context for why a thing may have costed so much.....end of discussion.

Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs may like to have a word with you

 

[SkUnimatrix]

The 2-year (2014) deadline was set when they aimed to get 2 million funding to make an average space sim. Anyone with at least 2 brain cells should know that if you increase the scope of a game, the development time will increase proportionally. That's the reason why most people don't mind the delays.
You can't blame someone for not having a Delorean to go back to the future and see what's gonna happen. The same way, you can't blame someone for hiring an external studio and expecting them to NOT<SFE> their work. People here are calling CR incompetent for not knowing the future. Literally.

Anyone with two brain cells and a decades or more of experience in the software industry knows that expanding scope is what usually dooms a project. Something starts out being relatively simple and upfront and then gets mangled into some kind of horrible monster by the end. It's start with: "Well this is good, but what if it also could do X...'

 

[Backer42]

CRoberts doesn't use dates anymore, he's actually taken advice and listened to the rube.. I mean whale sized backers to not use dates anymore because they have missed all of them by a long margin.

Seriously, that's in a Letter from the Chairman. That's a sign of "I haven't a clue what I'm doing."

He should have done that during the Kickstarter. He wouldn't have seen any substantial money.

And he should have honestly set the KS goal to $60,000,000.

 

[Stigbob]

You mean big publisher?

Who care's I mean people who ditched Roberts and made freelancer despite him using it to practice all the errors he's now making on a much grander and more expensive (for the backers) scale.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Your right about the lack of similarity between star citizen and freelancer, there's no big developer to kick Roberts off the project and sort out the mess this time.

/thread

Ok, I am off to Friday chill off and playing ED a bit. Will peek in tomorrow. Have fun guys. And don't fly drunk

 

[Marak]

/thread

Ok, I am off to Friday chill off and playing ED a bit. Will peek in tomorrow. Have fun guys. And don't fly drunk

Night Pecisk - and I always fly drunk - I've seen bits of space stations no-one else has

 

[briguy168]

I've offered tons of facts, but as always - you just shrug them off. You and Briguy are the ones that came here with the "mental issues" accusations - not me or anyone else.

Case and point. If the mods didn't delete my post I could point back to it but the gist of what I posted was if you think that Star Citizen is a scam or that any of their employees would keep quiet about a scam, you might want to get your head examined. Don't know how that equates to "mental issues" unless you think Star Citizen is a scam or think that their employees would be complicit in said scam.

 

[Andovar]

/thread

Ok, I am off to Friday chill off and playing ED a bit. Will peek in tomorrow. Have fun guys. And don't fly drunk

Ha! Same here. ...um, except i might be flying drunk... well, just a little.

 

[tooterfish]

Case and point. If the mods didn't delete my post I could point back to it but the gist of what I posted was if you think that Star Citizen is a scam or that any of their employees would keep quiet about a scam, you might want to get your head examined. Don't know how that equates to "mental issues" unless you think Star Citizen is a scam or think that their employees would be complicit in said scam.

Theranos was the fastest growing tech company in the world, with hundreds of employees and a net worth of 9 billion dollars. It took the FBI knocking on their door to reveal it as a scam.

Just because the worker bees are still beavering away doesn't mean something's not up. Just because people keep buying an Idris doesn't mean something's not up.

 

[briguy168]

Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs may like to have a word with you

So you are going to pull UK/EU laws that only govern entities within said jurisdiction.....wonderful logic there

 

[Marak]

So you are going to pull UK/EU laws that only govern entities within said jurisdiction.....wonderful logic there

Umm... CIG has a studio in the UK and they have to comply with UK law. Last I heard they've failed to register this years financial statement.

*Edit - Late ninja'd by a better answer [below]

 

[Stigbob]

So you are going to pull UK/EU laws that only govern entities within said jurisdiction.....wonderful logic there

Foundry 42 is in the UK and apparently is the least dysfunctional part of the Crobblers evil multinational big development company.

Did you know they've apparently failed to file their finances two years running, that means automatic fines. Good to see them being so careful with backers money.

 

[ianw]

Umm... CIG has a studio in the UK and they have to comply with UK law. Last I heard they've failed to register this years financial statement.

Yeah - but that's like just your opinion man - I mean laws and stuff - that's just like something the man would say, man.

 

[briguy168]

Theranos was the fastest growing tech company in the world, with hundreds of employees and a net worth of 9 billion dollars. It took the FBI knocking on their door to reveal it as a scam.

Just because the worker bees are still beavering away doesn't mean something's not up. Just because people keep buying an Idris doesn't mean something's not up.

And like I said to Sleutelbos, that is a logical fallacy to assume that because this company turned out to be a scam that CIG will/could turn out to be a scam. I mean if that is your logic for calling CIG/Star Citizen a scam than you have to use that logic for every business everywhere.....see how ridiculous that is. So again if you have undeniable proof post it and allow that evidence to prove your claim and dictate the conversation instead of the status quo of subjective conjecture.

 

[Marak]

Yeah - but that's like just your opinion man - I mean laws and stuff - that's just like something the man would say, man.

I love the sixties.

And like I said to Sleutelbos, that is a logical fallacy to assume that because this company turned out to be a scam that CIG will/could turn out to be a scam. I mean if that is your logic for calling CIG/Star Citizen a scam than you have to use that logic for every business everywhere.....see how ridiculous that is. So again if you have undeniable proof post it and allow that evidence to prove your claim and dictate the conversation instead of the status quo of subjective conjecture.

Ok... If it's not a scam, would you agree that this project could have been managed better?

 

[briguy168]

Umm... CIG has a studio in the UK and they have to comply with UK law. Last I heard they've failed to register this years financial statement.

*Edit - Late ninja'd by a better answer [below]

Foundry 42 is in the UK and apparently is the least dysfunctional part of the Crobblers evil multinational big development company.

Did you know they've apparently failed to file their finances two years running, that means automatic fines. Good to see them being so careful with backers money.

I have no idea about any of that but the only company beholden to those laws are Foundry42 UK and/or DE. CIG/RSI, the parent company, don't have to comply with those laws sorry to burst your bubbles

 

[AJW]

I have no idea about any of that but the only company beholden to those laws are Foundry42 UK and/or DE. CIG/RSI, the parent company, don't have to comply with those laws sorry to burst your bubbles

I find it interesting that you seem to think that a business not being legally accountable for its actions is a good thing.