With the implementation o NEW Karma e C&P - Will the Log timer go up? 15 secs is to low!

[Genar-Hofoen]

What is always absent from these types of thread, is this:

Define combat. Define it within the context of this game.

 

[Han_Zen]

I do not believe that it should be possible to leave combat except via piloting: meaning you kill, you die, you jump, or you self-destruct.

I do not agree with a menu quit option that permits a ship with 0% FSD or 0% Drives (or both) to be teleported to safety by handwavium.

Therefore I do not believe that it should be possible to exercise the menu quit option at all whilst in combat (or other danger). If RL calls you away, you leave your ship to its fate.

If, however, as I expect, the menu quit timer remains in game, I believe that its duration should be elevated to longer than a piloted exit could ever take.

In other words, if we assume a guy fights the interdiction, fails it, waits out the long FSD cooldown, then gets hit by a Yuri Grom missile, then has to wait out that second cooldown, and then has to charge FSD for highwake and achieve highwake ... the menu quit timer should, for reasons that I hope are obvious, be made longer than that total time.

In other words, longer even than 60 seconds.

It should also be accompanied (as an FSD charge is) by a clear indication to the enemy of what is taking place.

I do, however, entirely agree with those who say that once activated, it should not require a second press at the end of the timer. If it's going to stay in game it may as well have a reasonable UI.

However, my fundamental concern as both a pilot and a customer is that as a matter of principle I do not believe it should ever be advantageous to us an out-of-game quit option to escape peril, over in-game piloting.

No menu log in combat, would make RES of limit for me. I've logget out of countless fights that I was winning, because of RL.

Never menu logged on a player though. If that situasjon came up, I would hi-wake first and then menu log.

 

[ToCoSo]

Can we get an Amazon Delivery/Child spilt drink on TV button though for us people who have to leave the game quickly sometimes!

 

[Riverside]

I do not believe that it should be possible to leave combat except via piloting: meaning you kill, you die, you jump, or you self-destruct.

I do not agree with a menu quit option that permits a ship with 0% FSD or 0% Drives (or both) to be teleported to safety by handwavium.

Therefore I do not believe that it should be possible to exercise the menu quit option at all whilst in combat (or other danger). If RL calls you away, you leave your ship to its fate.

If, however, as I expect, the menu quit timer remains in game, I believe that its duration should be elevated to longer than a piloted exit could ever take.

In other words, if we assume a guy fights the interdiction, fails it, waits out the long FSD cooldown, then gets hit by a Yuri Grom missile, then has to wait out that second cooldown, and then has to charge FSD for highwake and achieve highwake ... the menu quit timer should, for reasons that I hope are obvious, be made longer than that total time.

In other words, longer even than 60 seconds.

It should also be accompanied (as an FSD charge is) by a clear indication to the enemy of what is taking place.

I do, however, entirely agree with those who say that once activated, it should not require a second press at the end of the timer. If it's going to stay in game it may as well have a reasonable UI.

However, my fundamental concern as both a pilot and a customer is that as a matter of principle I do not believe it should ever be advantageous to us an out-of-game quit option to escape peril, over in-game piloting.

That all seems like fair comment (as usual Truesilver ). Playing devils advocate I agree just getting up from the desk & leaving your game running seems a reasonable approach, except for circumstances where you want to switch off your PC/laptop.

I have occasionally insisted that my (10yo) son needs to end a session (because it's bedtime, or time for school etc), when he complains I simply remind him to keep an eye on the time & plan better, but sometimes PvP sessions go on for an unexpectedly long time, as can PvE fights. We delayed going out recently when he beat Gannon in Zelda. Bedtime or teatime can be reasonably delayed for a few minutes, school & other things cannot. He doesn't play ED btw.

Can we get an Amazon Delivery/Child spilt drink on TV button though for us people who have to leave the game quickly sometimes!

As Truesilver says, you could just leave the game running.

 

[Truesilver]

No menu log in combat, would make RES of limit for me. I've logget out of countless fights that I was winning, because of RL.

Never menu logged on a player though. If that situasjon came up, I would hi-wake first and then menu log.

I think there might be a solution to this problem and perhaps even to much of combat logging generally ...

... NPC controlled high-wake.

I (as hypothetical aggressor, eg Powerplay) don't have a problem with my enemy hitting a 'get me outta here!' key and then either watching tensely or even going AFK while their ship, on autopilot or via crew member, clears any mass-locking bodies and then high wakes.

NPC's already do this all the time, so the AI is already in game.

My only stipulation would be that said 'auto high wake' be reasonably slow - nothing like as fast as a skilled, experienced player, more at the level of a flustered newcomer - to give pirates and PvP attackers a fair chance to do their thing.

In other words, it should never confer an advantage on the player using it (because they would have been better off high waking themselves) but it would give them an option of escape that wouldn't break anybody's immersion.

 

[kinglemo2000]

I do not believe that it should be possible to leave combat except via piloting: meaning you kill, you die, you jump, or you self-destruct.

I do not agree with a menu quit option that permits a ship with 0% FSD or 0% Drives (or both) to be teleported to safety by handwavium.

Therefore I do not believe that it should be possible to exercise the menu quit option at all whilst in combat (or other danger). If RL calls you away, you leave your ship to its fate.

If, however, as I expect, the menu quit timer remains in game, I believe that its duration should be elevated to longer than a piloted exit could ever take.

In other words, if we assume a guy fights the interdiction, fails it, waits out the long FSD cooldown, then gets hit by a Yuri Grom missile, then has to wait out that second cooldown, and then has to charge FSD for highwake and achieve highwake ... the menu quit timer should, for reasons that I hope are obvious, be made longer than that total time.

In other words, longer even than 60 seconds.

It should also be accompanied (as an FSD charge is) by a clear indication to the enemy of what is taking place.

I do, however, entirely agree with those who say that once activated, it should not require a second press at the end of the timer. If it's going to stay in game it may as well have a reasonable UI.

However, my fundamental concern as both a pilot and a customer is that as a matter of principle I do not believe it should ever be advantageous to use an out-of-game quit option to escape peril, over in-game piloting.

This is all well and good but no one has answered my previous reply on this why should solo and private groups be forced to endure a much longer logout to satisfy the PVP players in open if they want this then the timer should be removed from the other modes, also the things that kick the timer in should be changed as well would should I be forced to wait the 60 seconds or more to logout just because I am fuel scooping by a star or my SRV is near a base although I am not being fired on in solo or a player group.

One thing I don't believe lengthening the logout timer will do is actually help these players get what they want I just believe we will see a increase in combat logging even with the proposed karma system, how long will it take for griefers to work out how much positives in game actions will be needed to out weigh a few negative combat logs or if they use a underpowered weaponless ship to combat log only suffer a lower drop as the pvper is in a much better warship, or worse still use the p2p exploits to kill players from their instance to save themselves so they are still connected to FD servers and so negate the karma points

 

[Riverside]

I think there might be a solution to this problem and perhaps even to much of combat logging generally ...

... NPC controlled high-wake.

I (as hypothetical aggressor, eg Powerplay) don't have a problem with my enemy hitting a 'get me outta here!' key and then either watching tensely or even going AFK while their ship, on autopilot or via crew member, clears any mass-locking bodies and then high wakes.

NPC's already do this all the time, so the AI is already in game.

My only stipulation would be that said 'auto high wake' be reasonably slow - nothing like as fast as a skilled, experienced player, more at the level of a flustered newcomer - to give pirates and PvP attackers a fair chance to do their thing.

In other words, it should never confer an advantage on the player using it (because they would have been better off high waking themselves) but it would give them an option of escape that wouldn't break anybody's immersion.

Having an AI pilot take over your ship to clear masslock & simulate a high wake would work. As someone suggested earlier in the thread an 'unknown' high wake signature could be left behind to help other players understand what happened if they are interested.

I think this particular high wake, if interrupted by a player could create issues, I absolutely would not want anyone to be able to prevent someone from being able to leave the game from the actions of another player. This would simply encourage CLogging I feel, in a way that I would consider trolling. It's a contentious issue though & I appreciate some may take a different view here. This is the part that could make the proposal unworkable.

The moving out of masslock part on the other hand, is under the players' direct control. They could choose to move their ship before initiating the exit game mechanic (simulated high wake), or let the AI do it.

 

[Riverside]

This is all well and good but no one has answered my previous reply on this why should solo and private groups be forced to endure a much longer logout to satisfy the PVP players in open if they want this then the timer should be removed from the other modes, also the things that kick the timer in should be changed as well would should I be forced to wait the 60 seconds or more to logout just because I am fuel scooping by a star or my SRV is near a base although I am not being fired on in solo or a player group.

One thing I don't believe lengthening the logout timer will do is actually help these players get what they want I just believe we will see a increase in combat logging even with the proposed karma system, how long will it take for griefers to work out how much positives in game actions will be needed to out weigh a few negative combat logs or if they use a underpowered weaponless ship to combat log only suffer a lower drop as the pvper is in a much better warship, or worse still use the p2p exploits to kill players from their instance to save themselves so they are still connected to FD servers and so negate the karma points

On the actual time it takes (ie changing from the current (15secs) you have a point, it's subjective. For some it's already too long, for others it's not long enough. whatever happens (even if nothing changes) some will be unhappy.

However if the confirmation to exit is moved from the end of the timer to be beginning (with an option to cancel) I'd say arguing against an extended timer is harder to justify. You can just walk away from the computer.

I occasionally decide to end my session & the 'your ship is in danger' message comes up (tbh more often because I'm near a star than anything else, or because the mechanic has not yet updated to realise I've killed the baddie & am no longer in danger). I just cancel the exit, make sure my ship is safe & press escape again.

 

[NW3]

Having an AI pilot take over your ship to clear masslock & simulate a high wake would work. It's a contentious issue though & I appreciate some may take a different view here. This is the part that could make the proposal unworkable.

Unfortunately, this is currently unworkable, due to the P2P design of the game. There's no way for the AI to seamlessly take command of a player's ship, once the connection is severed. As a programmer, it seems like it might be possible to inject an NPC to substitute for a player, but FD doesn't seem to want to go down this route.

On the actual time it takes (ie changing from the current (15secs) you have a point, it's subjective. For some it's already too long, for others it's not long enough. whatever happens (even if nothing changes) some will be unhappy.

However if the confirmation to exit is moved from the end of the timer to be beginning (with an option to cancel) I'd say arguing against an extended timer is harder to justify. You can just walk away from the computer.

True; this forum seems to collect unhappy players. Having an up-front confirmation would be a huge improvement.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

Keep the timer as it is, just have it reset whenever you take damage (and as others have said, have an option to confirm it then walk away rather than waiting the 15).

That way it's not a cheap escape route from any situation but its still easy to activate when real life calls

 

[Riverside]

Unfortunately, this is currently unworkable, due to the P2P design of the game. There's no way for the AI to seamlessly take command of a player's ship, once the connection is severed. As a programmer, it seems like it might be possible to inject an NPC to substitute for a player, but FD doesn't seem to want to go down this route.

I'm not a programmer so I'm happy to defer to you on this but this is how I see it:

Two players are at a RES, their ships are in danger.
Player A is in the instance, whether as an observer or a source of the danger
Player B decides to leave the game legitimately (not a CLog) and starts the 'are you sure? your ship is in danger' mechanic, and confirms that Player B want to leave the game. Player B gets up & walks away from their Computer.
Player B's game continues to run, hosting the AI takeover to move the ship out of masslock & simulate a high jump. At the end of the process Player A's computer takes over the instance (if they were not already hosting it) and Player B's computer communicates that Player B has left the instance as per a normal High-wake.
Finally, Player B's computer returns to the desktop after 15 secs plus however long to get out of masslock.

If Player A fires a high wake disrupting weapon I believe it shouldn't delay exiting the game (because it's outside Player B's control). Truesilver may be able to offer a more accurate analysis of this part of the scenario though, I'm not familiar with the mechanics of FSD disruption.

 

[Riverside]

Keep the timer as it is, just have it reset whenever you take damage (and as others have said, have an option to confirm it then walk away rather than waiting the 15).

That way it's not a cheap escape route from any situation but its still easy to activate when real life calls

I absolutely could not condone this, it would interfere with a players ability to leave the game at any time, it will increase the likelihood of CLogging during the timer. If dad comes into the room & tell you it's bedtime, you need to be able to walk away from your computer/console knowing how long before it shuts the game down.

 

[jasonbarron]

Leave the menu timer as is against NPC's. Increase the timer from 15 seconds to 30-60 against human players. Get rid of the "Accept" button at the end of the countdown.

Everybody wins

 

[shadragon]

Might want to rethink your actions... doing smuggling with a ship with no shields should be a suicide mission anyway.

If using SR to get into a station, then shields can be replaced with extra cargo space.

 

[Stigbob]

Leave the menu timer as is against NPC's. Increase the timer from 15 seconds to 30-60 against human players. Get rid of the "Accept" button at the end of the countdown.

Everybody wins

Yep this.

 

[two quiet suns]

you cannot compare quitting this game to quitting a match in another game because of the asset grind and consequences. the current logout timer is fine imo a balance of can't just quit and need to pause.

 

[Jukelo]

you cannot compare quitting this game to quitting a match in another game because of the asset grind and consequences. the current logout timer is fine imo a balance of can't just quit and need to pause.

Logging out is not supposed to be used to avoid consequences, whether it's against another player or an NPC. The fact you choose to grind and put so much importance on the accumulation of virtual property that you lose sight of the game behind is not a justification to use it so.

 

[Riverside]

Logging out is not supposed to be used to avoid consequences, whether it's against another player or an NPC. The fact you choose to grind and put so much importance on the accumulation of virtual property that you lose sight of the game behind is not a justification to use it so.

But as said earlier, you cannot establish context (like CLogging).

 

[Han_Zen]

Leave the menu timer as is against NPC's. Increase the timer from 15 seconds to 30-60 against human players. Get rid of the "Accept" button at the end of the countdown.

Everybody wins

Good enough for me.

 

[Jukelo]

But as said earlier, you cannot establish context (like CLogging).

With no further insight you can't, but I was addressing specifically Two Quiet Suns's post which didn't leave much to the imagination.