i saw someone mentioning if the polaris permit maybe was added after odyssey

View attachment 371931

So i will leave this here

Why that system, do you have a theory?

There are a lot of permit locked systems, even in the bubble, just curious as to why that one caught your attention :)

Sol, Shinrarta, Polaris and LFT 509/Ross 54 are my main candidates for progressing the search for the DW and/or Raxxla... Sol is a bit broken and has lots of possible links/hints, Shin Rez has a DW faction and locked until you are Elite, etc, Polaris is locked and has been part of the lore before...... but LFT 509/Ross 54 is broken in many ways and wrong for many weird reasons... ;-)
Polaris is in FFE (Elite 3) as was Miacke in the missions, all were part of the Thargoid narrative that was retconned in the early ED Thargoid days.

Polaris was the final place of the Thargoid mothership which could be docked with.

Shinrata looks like the "Starting" point of the search as it's the start of your dark wheel journey when you get access on hitting Elite 🤔
 
So what's up with the return of the Thetis signal and who is sending it?

The new signal could easily be speculated to be human or Thargoid, but I don't think that fits with Thetis. The Thetis event probably happened hundreds of years ago.
Back then I don't think Thargoids would have seen a single generation ship as any threat. Humans probably didn't have the capacity.

Halsey and Romero seem to have gotten their messages more directly, in a dream like state. This is mind-control via coms systems. The sender is advanced, but not able to go directly into the mind of the receiver. I have no one to hang this on. :cautious:
I suspect AI
 

Searching for The Dark Wheel?​


Honestly I think we've already found the Dark Wheel home system, and the Dark Wheel itself. The confirmation is that we're told in the Codex entry that fake DW get shut down, and that hasn't happened to the Shinrarta faction (the exact opposite, actually).

I think the issue with people accepting that is that we're looking at it from the wrong end:


Imagine you're a new player, or in-universe (it's basically the same for these purposes) in 3300. You have virtually no meta knowledge of prior games and/or lore. Say, you maybe know a little, but nothing like the knowledge level of the majority of people that post here, as someone in the world you've probably heard whispers and things, know a little of the world, etc.

You get a mysterious ship and some money sent to you, and there's a note on the lawyer's letter saying that someone is keeping an eye on you (as per the intro to the manual). This matches the Codex "it is always they who initiate contact, initially in disguise".

A while later you get awarded the rank of Elite by the Pilot's Federation (after much adventuring) This matches the Codex "revealing their true identity only once a suitable test of courage and skill has been discreetly administered, and passed". You find you've got a permit to a mysterious system named Shinrarta Dezhra. You go there and spend a while reading all the entries in the (previously entirely inaccessible) beacons there; Massive Lore drop containing all sort of previously unknown revelations!

You dock up at the station named for the most famous of all pilots, and you see for the first time you can accept missions from THE DARK WHEEL!

Narratively, that's pretty awesome and does match, approximately, the template established in the myth.

We also know that originally there was some sort of special missions relating to the Dark Wheel that were later removed, so there would have been some additional contextual stuff around that faction of the Dark Wheel being the "real" one, and who knows what else got changed over time.

Most of us who were really into Elite were backers in the early days and got into Shinrarta anyway (as per the Codex and Galmap hinting at other ways of entry), and the internet proliferation of info and tools has made common knowledge of what was/would have been reserved for only a select few Elites - but that doesn't make it any less special or secret when you take in context.



In all the lore we're told that the widespread use of the new technology of FSD has fundamentally changed the galaxy in almost every way. It sparks mass exploration, wars, all sorts of places that were inaccessible become accessible (for better and worse).

It seems to me that narratively The Dark Wheel, and more widely the Pilot's Federation has been evolving to keep up. Instigating Permit Locks is clearly a reaction to FSD and Universal Cartographic's democratic approach to data-spreading. UC doesn't seem to be part of the PF, but I'd assume the PF can leverage enough pressure on UC to get stuff changed. Much like Azimuth and other private corps can afford to pay UC to lock systems like governments can.

All the players are automatically in the PF, but most of the 'people' in the galaxy aren't. We get our news via Galnet, which is in itself controlled by the PF for the PF - so it's sort of like we're in a dictatorship where the state controls all media we have access to, and in fact the ships we fly and the services we use - all that stuff is basically provided by the PF for PF members only. The bounty system, mission rewards, repair costs, all that stuff if subsidised by or controlled by the PF - all this is laid out in the Shinrarta beacons really clearly.

The Dark Wheel is a faction of the Pilot's Federation. From the Shinrarta tourist beacon around the 8th moon of an unnamed Gas Giant:
... There are also known cliques within the PF (The Dark Wheel is probably the most famous) that have their own agendas. Officially these are discouraged, but in an organisation so large they are tolerated as long as they don't overstep the mark.
I read this as clear confirmation that the Dark Wheel in Shinrarta is the 'real' Dark Wheel. But we also know from "And Here The Wheel" that the DW splintered at least once, so that DW might be the name, but not anything else (we simply have no additional info yet).



Personally, I think the Dark Wheel is a dead end anyway. All the lore says they were searching for Raxxla and never found it. We know that quest continues because of the events of the novel "And Here The Wheel", though it's possible Raxxla was found by some faction of The Dark Wheel within the last couple of decades, which may have been made possible by FSD, but I suspect the problem with finding Raxxla wasn't as much about distance and ease of travel as it was something else.



Further things to consider:​

Things that I think are still interesting are the Ryder Revolutionary Party, a faction in the Maia system. That name is highly significant to Raxxla Lore. It's presence in the Pleiades can't be a coincidence. Add that to the Delphi/Oracle connection in the Pleaides from the Raxxla Codex and the fact that many people have seen connections between the Thargoids and Raxxla during that period where Thargoids were exclusively found in the Pleiades. I think that's a lot of arrows pointing to the Pleiades.

LFT 509 is permit locked by the PF, but so it Bellica, Alpha Hydri, Ross 354, Mingfu, Witch's Reach, and I'm sure many more... other than a galmap bug relating to star catalogue names I'm not seeing what makes LFT 509 more interesting than any of those others?
 
What and where is the brow of heaven?

I knew ‘the brow’ had some relevance in Paradise Lost but couldn’t initially place it, until a recent re-read. Within the segment of book VI describing the war in heaven, and the expungement of Satan to hell, this area is described as being upon the brow of heaven.

Remember that later in Paradise Lost, when Satan is traversing back up through Chaos to find Paradise. The character Chaos tells Satan Paradises exact location, in being that same area as from whence his band of fallen angels were first excluded.

To that side Heav'n from whence your Legions fell”.

In book VI describing the war in heaven this location is described as being the brow of heaven.

Go, Michael, of celestial armies prince,
And thou, in military prowess next,
Gabriel, lead forth to battle these my sons Invincible; lead forth my armed Saints, By thousands and by millions, ranged for fight, Equal in number to that Godless crew Rebellious: Them with fire and hostile arms Fearless assault; and,
to the brow of Heaven Pursuing, drive them out from God and bliss, Into their place of punishment, the gulf Of Tartarus, which ready opens wide His fiery Chaos to receive their fall’ -John Milton Paradise Lost book VI.


Later in Paradise Lost our pendant world is described as hanging below the circumference of heavens wall, and a very specific zone, which as various scholars might identify, was a particular side of heaven, or a particular gate of heaven.

So given the various allusions to Miltons Pendant world in game, first by the codex of it as a jewel ‘burning on the brow’, then within the Brookes Tours and a direct Milton quote about this shining pendant world; I can summarise that FD is very likely referencing this same location described from Paradise Lost, the brow of heavens encircling wall, the edge of heaven.

Raxxla therefore is being described I believe as being upon the brow / egdge of some ‘metaphorical’ boundary or wall of some type of a heaven, or as I have already potentially identified, via my Lost Realms discoveries, maybe this is some alternative Robert Holdstock ‘otherworld’?

Has the wall of heaven been transcribed to the boundary of the Lost Realms? Or does it still reside close to the original first fall of Satan, much higher up? If so why all this emphasis on the Lost Realms within the codex? If that is the correct interpretation?

View attachment 372483
The Milky Way Galaxy across the sky separating the northern celestial sphere from the southern celestial sphere? That is probably the most significant division line in the sky. Even as CMDRs traveling around, the Milky Way Galaxy cuts across the sky if you are near the galactic disk.


Milky Way cutting across the sky.png
 
What and where is the brow of heaven?

I knew ‘the brow’ had some relevance in Paradise Lost but couldn’t initially place it, until a recent re-read. Within the segment of book VI describing the war in heaven, and the expungement of Satan to hell, this area is described as being upon the brow of heaven.

Remember that later in Paradise Lost, when Satan is traversing back up through Chaos to find Paradise. The character Chaos tells Satan Paradises exact location, in being that same area as from whence his band of fallen angels were first excluded.

To that side Heav'n from whence your Legions fell”.

In book VI describing the war in heaven this location is described as being the brow of heaven.

Go, Michael, of celestial armies prince,
And thou, in military prowess next,
Gabriel, lead forth to battle these my sons Invincible; lead forth my armed Saints, By thousands and by millions, ranged for fight, Equal in number to that Godless crew Rebellious: Them with fire and hostile arms Fearless assault; and,
to the brow of Heaven Pursuing, drive them out from God and bliss, Into their place of punishment, the gulf Of Tartarus, which ready opens wide His fiery Chaos to receive their fall’ -John Milton Paradise Lost book VI.


Later in Paradise Lost our pendant world is described as hanging below the circumference of heavens wall, and a very specific zone, which as various scholars might identify, was a particular side of heaven, or a particular gate of heaven.

So given the various allusions to Miltons Pendant world in game, first by the codex of it as a jewel ‘burning on the brow’, then within the Brookes Tours and a direct Milton quote about this shining pendant world; I can summarise that FD is very likely referencing this same location described from Paradise Lost, the brow of heavens encircling wall, the edge of heaven.

Raxxla therefore is being described I believe as being upon the brow / egdge of some ‘metaphorical’ boundary or wall of some type of a heaven, or as I have already potentially identified, via my Lost Realms discoveries, maybe this is some alternative Robert Holdstock ‘otherworld’?

Has the wall of heaven been transcribed to the boundary of the Lost Realms? Or does it still reside close to the original first fall of Satan, much higher up? If so why all this emphasis on the Lost Realms within the codex? If that is the correct interpretation?

View attachment 372483
If Milton was using the term 'brow' in relation to the top of a hill or, in this case a pass, and heaven is the idea of an alternate utopian reality (ie. a reality or dimension beyond our own), then it would make sense that to reach or traverse such a place would be via a rift [omphalos!] in the metaphorical wall between heaven and our universe. Such a place could have a world or location on the edge or near the precipice of this rift. A realm lost?

Further to this I note that Milton's original spelling 'pend(E)nt world' implies something that is undecided or pending judgement - hence the brilliant homophonic double meaning of a thing being both "suspended" and "held in suspension". I recall that pilots would need to undergo some kind of test or mission to gain access to the Dark Wheel and thus access to Raxxla. It could also mean this world or gateway is therefore suspended above or in orbit around something.
Like a test this is also sounding more like a place of purgatory 🤔 - a.k.a a realm of lost souls (sinners) needing to pass through.

Then we also have the World's size description as being... "like a star of smallest magnitude close by the moon". Considering the double meanings present, this immediately reminded me of a white dwarf or even a neutron star. A "star of smallest magnitude" could be one that is brightest, or emit a lot of radiation such as during or just before they go supernova. "Close by the moon" could literally mean it is approximately the size of a moon which fits the relatively small size of white dwarfs and neutron stars.

Going even further with the supernovae / white dwarf comparison - this would also link a white dwarf to the siren of the deepest void whose death throes can be a beacon that can be measured or navigated to. They also can have companion stars that feed the white dwarf - a parent (star)'s grief - sacrificing their matter only to lose their child in the resulting explosion. The lover's woe - a binary star losing their companion.
These binary systems also have a glowing disc of material. As the Brooke Tour states "and fast [fastened or held securely] by, hanging by a golden chain" ie. the glowing material being drawn from the companion star to the white dwarf, both being held fast by gravity.

One last comparison - Brooke's Tour mentions the "undefined muth". Is this a misspelling of mouth? or are they deliberately using the Germanic word for mouth?
Some definitions of this word are of a speaker or a 'mouthpiece' uttering common opinion (akin to the Mouth of Sauron in LOTR), also an outlet / aperture, or an opening. This lends credence to it being a siren-like entity "speaking" out to the void - a whisperer in witchspace. Whispers can be barely perceptible, as though 'bleeding' into the realm of witchspace and not quite comprehensible.
 
Then we also have the World's size description as being... "like a star of smallest magnitude close by the moon". Considering the double meanings present, this immediately reminded me of a white dwarf or even a neutron star. A "star of smallest magnitude" could be one that is brightest, or emit a lot of radiation such as during or just before they go supernova. "Close by the moon" could literally mean it is approximately the size of a moon which fits the relatively small size of white dwarfs and neutron stars
There are lots of white dwarfs near Sol, Sirius B being one of the absolute closest 8.59 LY). Sirius A, of course, it noted for its brilliance as viewed from Sol.
 
Then we also have the World's size description as being... "like a star of smallest magnitude close by the moon". Considering the double meanings present, this immediately reminded me of a white dwarf or even a neutron star. A "star of smallest magnitude" could be one that is brightest, or emit a lot of radiation such as during or just before they go supernova. "Close by the moon" could literally mean it is approximately the size of a moon which fits the relatively small size of white dwarfs and neutron stars
The only "stars" consistently "close to the Moon" are planets in Sol not actual stars (with the two most likely being Mercury and Venus).

 
1698768915768.jpeg


The interpretation may be off. Pendent world is not Earth. It was the entire Universe. You're dealing with a Ptolemic Universe that got applied to a Universe where Earth is important but not central. Therefore, the pendant world is the whole of the Universe from the observer's perspective. The outer-most shell is the observable universe spinning about the point of observation.

Miltonian Cosmogony Pendent World Not Earth.png


Source:
Title: The Astronomy of Milton Authors: Paterson, J. A. Journal: Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada, Vol. 3, p.356 Bibliographic Code: 1909JRASC...3..356P
(full text attached)

See also concept of Primum Mobile:
 

Attachments

  • Miltonian Cosmogony and Modern Astronomy.pdf
    682.7 KB · Views: 121
Last edited:
In other words, Earth is of central importance to humanity because that is where we find out about Raxxla. Earth is not itself Raxxla (and it was our home). That is the entirety of the observable cosmos.
 
Just to clarify in case of any misinterpretation, none of what I was saying was focused on an Earth-centric perspective and I didn't make any reference to Earth or the Sol system. That may be the basis of one theory, but I don't yet see any reason to be constrained to that when searching for a common thread.
 
Just to clarify in case of any misinterpretation, none of what I was saying was focused on an Earth-centric perspective and I didn't make any reference to Earth or the Sol system. That may be the basis of one theory, but I don't yet see any reason to be constrained to that when searching for a common thread.
My reply was more towards @Rochester which in recent posts had been gravitating towards an Earth-central reference (perhaps unintentionally). Given that, was trying to provide clarification on "pendent world" as Miltonian Cosmogony is solidly Ptolemic but when applied it somewhat breaks the interpretation. That said, I am truthfully not even sure the actual center of human space is anchored at Sol (pretty sure it isn't uniform distance from Sol before hitting unpopulated systems). Sure, Sol is centrally important to humanity because we are from there and it may have where we learn about Raxxla. That said, while important it isn't Raxxla just the (0,0,0) of human coordinate grids. I think the idea is valid but only once you realize Miltonian Cosmogony only works in the modern framework with the center being the observer not a specific planet per se.
 
Last edited:
To paraphrase some very wise humans:

"Kill your ego before it kills you."

---
- Humanity stumbles upon Raxxla by accident. We might control it now (maybe), but we didn't build the majority of it.

- The Gateway itself is but one piece of a vastly larger puzzle.

- Raxxla is ancient and probably far more so than humanity.

- Our rumors of it are colored by the rose-colored glasses of our cultures. Our cultures are in turn influenced by our perspective.

- Raxxla, as such, can only be found by breaking free of your cultural programming.

- The journey is more important than the destination.
 
Last edited:

Philip Coutts

Volunteer Moderator
The problem that I see is this, space.

As Douglas Adams said:

“Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space.”

So there we have it we are searching in such a massive area that chances of success without at least some breadcrumbs to follow are not that high disappointingly.
 
The problem that I see is this, space.

As Douglas Adams said:

“Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space.”

So there we have it we are searching in such a massive area that chances of success without at least some breadcrumbs to follow are not that high disappointingly.
Insofar as hints, I think some of the better ones are information like on Faraway and development of hyperspace technology. Example, there are well known large antenna on large stations and outposts. The large stations (all types including asteroid) have a ring with antenna that seems to important to functionality of modern Frameshift Drive technology. Though, I generally take the stance very little has changed: Saud Kruger Astrogation Console present in all ships (Astrogator acquired by Saud Kruger), fuel scoops present since before first game and in all games since the beginning (see Reorte and Beta Hydri beacons), and Sidewinders and others used to use something like wake scanning to follow ships they escorted. Additionally, it is hard to argue Fleet Carriers aren't using externally configured jumps. The CMDR that owns the carrier can be hundreds of lightyears distant and have a carrier pick them up. The past is the lesson. But, you have to be careful to contextualize the lessons.
 
Last edited:
My reply was more towards @Rochester which in recent posts had been gravitating towards an Earth-central reference (perhaps unintentionally). Given that, was trying to provide clarification on "pendent world" as Miltonian Cosmogony is solidly Ptolemic but when applied it somewhat breaks the interpretation. That said, I am truthfully not even sure the actual center of human space is anchored at Sol (pretty sure it isn't uniform distance from Sol before hitting unpopulated systems). Sure, Sol is centrally important to humanity because we are from there and it may have where we learn about Raxxla. That said, while important it isn't Raxxla just the (0,0,0) of human coordinate grids. I think the idea is valid but only once you realize Miltonian Cosmogony only works in the modern framework with the center being the observer not a specific planet per se.

There is a general wide misinterpretation of the text, given its age and various cultural attitudes, which granted is difficult to convey without getting very literal and utilising an enormous wall of text.

To paraphrase Milton calls it the pendant world.

Contextually in the text this pendant world is literally the entirety of ‘our’ observable universe. It is encased within a crystalline hard sphere, which itself contains all the other sphere’s, like an inter dimensional tardis.

Going through these spheres are all of the stars and ‘other Edens’. At the centre is Eden, it is not Earth, but this garden exists of earth and in Miltons texts the planet only becomes more consistent later on.

Eden the garden or paradise is then lifted into heaven, becoming the realm for the afterlife.

@selbie is spot on in that this pendant world or model universe is described using a homophonic double meaning, it is both a jewel hanging from heavens wall, but also something new and mutable.

The description of it being like a star next to the moon, is an attempt to convey its brilliance and size in context to that of heaven. Eg it shines as if like a star in the sky if seen next to the brilliance of our moon, if viewed from earth. This is the view Satan witnesses, Milton is attempting to convey the enormity of this vision.

Milton model universe is also not wholly solidly Ptolemic, it is an abstraction of Dante’s vision but Miltons prescription is far more concerned with its context in relation to its position to heaven, chaos and hell, as this helps convey the enormous distances he is attempting to convey.

My interpretation of Miltons heaven is that it is a vast area of pure light, consisting of various abstract notions of rivers and mountains, it’s insubstantial but it’s conveyed the Angels even have rest, eat and have home there, at its centre is gods mountain, his seat or throne. The outskirts are described as living battlements made of jewels, it’s circumference is incredibly high, I would possibly go so far as ‘mountainous’ and has various gates.

Again I am no theologian, I read classics at school but they were dry and dusty times. One of the great things I love about the search for Raxxla, is it has brought me back to these and other text, and encouraged me to contextualise them through the prism of astronomy and fine art.

Much is open to interpretation.
 
Last edited:
The problem that I see is this, space.

As Douglas Adams said:

“Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space.”

So there we have it we are searching in such a massive area that chances of success without at least some breadcrumbs to follow are not that high disappointingly.
The question is, Where we given the breadcrumbs?
 
The question is, Where we given the breadcrumbs?
Everywhere possibly. Everything from beacons, GalNet, logs from INRA, etc. There is very little I would honestly say isn't a hint at the true nature of things. You as a CMDR are kind of tasked with what actually happened and how did we get here. Something that could potentially connect galaxies is going to have a lot of unseen functions. Also, if your technology is reverse-engineered (though perhaps much earlier) there's going to be lessons there (and that's using almost exclusively modern game only). The old stuff just allows for drawing from a lot more material. That said, descriptions on like engineering materials and data are surprisingly good at painting a more full picture. Context is critical in getting a grasp at what you are dealing with in the end.
 
One of the great things I love about the search for Raxxla, is it has brought me back to these and other text, and encouraged me to contextualise them through the prism of astronomy and fine art.

Much is open to interpretation.
Ever considered contextualising it through the main protagonists in game?

Satan as the Thargoids?
Guardians as angels or God?
and humans being the sinful people we are coming from Earth?

:)
 
Back
Top Bottom