External View [A definitive discussion]

[Tinman]

Nope, what I am pointing out here, is that what seems like it would be a good idea can turn out to be a really bad one (in the case of SWG, a fatal one).

Or the idea can turn out to be a stroke of genius and lead to huge success...it goes both ways.

The original Elite did not have fancy external views because it wasn't really a practical proposition in terms of graphics and computing power, but Frontier Elite did have many external views, so things can evolve, particularly when computing power and graphical advances make that desirable.

Being that Elite Dangerous is yet another evolution, with vastly prettier graphics, it seems to me (and to quite a lot of other people too apparently, given the number of threads this subject has spawned) that it would be foolish not to embrace that.

I agree that ED is yet another evolution of the series...in this we will not only fly around in a true to scale galaxy, but we will eventually also be able to get out of the pilot seat and walk around inside the ships, stations and even down on the planets. One way of making that consistent is to make the game experience seamless between the modes. Making sure that the players always experience the game from the eyes of the pilot seems to be the way FD plans to do that. To suddenly be able to switch into a third person external view goes against this because it pulls you out of the body of the pilot. HOWEVER...I have no objection against being able to get some form of external view as long as it fits the context of the game. Camera drones controlled by the pilot from inside the cockpit through some sort of monitor seems to be most likely scenario at this point.

Take a look at the teaser video of the capital ship battle (made by FD themselves). Where is their 'only in the cockpit' vision on that video? I'll tell you where, nowhere to be seen, because they knew that if all it showed was a cockpit view, most people would have said it looked boring. And you know what? They would have been right too.

Check it out if you don't remember it, you can count the in-cockpit shots on one hand, and that's in a video which lasts nearly three minutes, so even FD knew it wouldn't have gone over well to just have cockpit shots in their teaser video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE8B4KptyVI

And what is more, if people see that teaser video, and then buy Elite Dangerous on the strength of it, then find out you can't do all those cool external views, FD are going to be doing what Egosoft had to do with X Rebirth - i.e. hand out a load of refunds for misrepresenting what the game was and hiding from all the scathing reviews. And that will play right into Star Citizen's hands.

Great books doesn't always translate well when adapted to film. The same thing applies here. What is fun in terms of gameplay does not always translate well into a more cinematic form, AKA teasers/trailers published on Youtube.

Look at the teasers/trailers of pretty much any game out there and you see the same thing. Most of them are cinematic in nature and in many cases doesn't even show any real gameplay at all. A lot of them are completely prerendered and some of the even live action. The purpose of these is more to convey the general feel of the gameworld and to get people excited about the product rather than show real actual gameplay. (If this is a good or bad thing is another discussion. ) The trailers for EVE being a perfect example...I don't see people asking for refunds on that game because the trailers aren't an "accurate" representation of the game.

 

[Olrik]

I want a shot of a ship flying towards the enemy opening gun ports and letting loose a barrage of missiles.

This would be ridiculously easy to do with 3rd person.

I don´t agree. Not necessarily.
http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?p=287604#post287604
Roberts on third person view, (he is right)

Spoiler

Roberts addressed the debate over first person view and third person view.

Members of the Star Citizen community have expressed comments that third person view gives an unfair advantage over first person. Roberts stated that Star Citizen, like Wing Commander, will be primarily built for a first person view experience. However CIG also want to allow players to use a chase plane view to appreciate the detail of their ships, as well as potentially view any external damage. The third person view will have no heads up display (HUD), radar, or targeting information available. This is, according to Roberts, to provide some disadvantage to using the third person view and provide balance to the two views. First person view will have limited field of view compared to third person

---

NeilF

...Because, to say again, ED without an external view would be a shame IMHO. ie: Periodically it would be nice to enjoy the game from a more free roaming POV - eg: Leaving a space station and being able to pan around and just enjoy your craft and others passing by etc...

You are absolutely right
ED without an external view would be a shame. Take a look,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3srzdBAsdQ

Or, for example, Pioneer - minute 6 - enjoy,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZJs-NHTi3k

--

As Barns put it,

I want to see my ship in all its battered glory floating above mysterious nebulae and battle debris in a far away system, bathed in the fading light of a dying star... or something. Not in a hangar

 

[NeoRacer]

X:Rebirth has a 'camera drone' view right now, which is what some people here are suggesting and frankly, IT SUCKS>>

Why not have it like DCS: Flaming Cliffs where we have completely control over where the camera is, FOV and other options to really enjoy the beauty of it?! Makes no sense to have 'something in the way' of that like an imaginary drone, they can implement a camera anywhere in the 3d world. You dont need to have or invent a'drone' just so it will make sense in your mind. Just 'pretend' its a drone, ok? lol......

DCS: Flaming cliffs. Beautiful cameras

 

[NeoRacer]

?!? We dont need to imagine a technology scenario for it, sorry to burst your bubble but THIS IS A GAME. Im ok with it if you wanna 'pretend' the 3d view is a drone, or a real camera..whatever. We're not going back to pre 1982 days where you can't even see your own ship. And I think the polls have spoken. This is getting really annoying.

Well, here's my 0.02 credits.

I don't think there should be an arbitrary 3rd person view in the shape of some kind of non-ship-based Godview of the surrounds. But there should definitely be some way to look outside your ship, whether that's a drone and/or a rear-mounted camera that feeds into the HUD somewhere.

To me, a Godview for the sake of a Godview is immersion-breaking, as you can't really imagine a technology scenario for it. But similarly, not having the camera tech to be able to see behind your ship in the next millennium, when we can already do that today in our cars, is immersion-breaking because it's odd and incongruous in a universe full of advanced tech.

Rear-mounted and side-mounted cameras, to me, should be available for purchase at shipyards and the like, but they can quite easily be taken out when hit. When a camera feed in the HUD goes staticky in the midst of a dogfight, that's an immersive gameplay moment, to me. Being aware that you need to go purchase a new one as soon as you get a chance is an immersive narrative line, to me.

 

[Memnoch]

We're not going back to pre 1982 days where you can't even see your own ship. And I think the polls have spoken. This is getting really annoying.

Yes they have. 73 want to see their ship, 132 don't.

 

[Shotgun2097]

call of duty wallas

im only on page 2 of this thread, immersion i understand but y`all sound like a bunch o kids on a call o duty server...

 

[Dejay]

Why not have it like DCS: Flaming Cliffs where we have completely control over where the camera is, FOV and other options to really enjoy the beauty of it?! Makes no sense to have 'something in the way' of that like an imaginary drone, they can implement a camera anywhere in the 3d world. You dont need to have or invent a'drone'

Why would you build a camera drone and have things sticking in the frame? Lol XRebirth is a bad game and bad example, their drones also were used for hacking and fighting. Calling the feature "camera drone" is simply an ingame explanation, and doesn't carry any penalties. I full agree that the drone / external view should be free and able to move any way you want.

For visual glory!

 

[Dejay]

Yes they have. 73 want to see their ship, 132 don't.

You'll never know. A minimum of only 46 might have said no because of multiple choice. It's even likely because the nays are all very close to 46.

PS: Don't troll and don't feed trolls

 

[Rog]

Yes they have. 73 want to see their ship, 132 don't.

The vote is rather inaccurate; it's pretty obvious that with 130 voters and a total of 224 votes cast, many/most people chose a single option. Like myself - doh!

Perhaps it would be far simpler if some kind of 'external view' could just be trialled in an Alpha/Beta build - it'd be either ok or not and therefore make it to release. Or not. If it was rubbish, I'd be happy it was left out.

Anyway, it might be time to just leave the matter with the devs now, all of the issues seem to have been exhaustively covered by us drooling masses.

Let them get on with it?

 

[Memnoch]

I have no doubt that FD will deliver, and will make a decision based on what they believe is right for their vision of the game, and not just what the "drooling masses" want. I think on that we can agree.

 

[Chock]

Yes they have. 73 want to see their ship, 132 don't.

But the poll doesn't have all options, where for example, is the 'I want numerous external views' or 'I want a fly-by view'? Instead we have two leading questions which suggest that people might want a view for a combat advantage (which few have picked because that is not what most people want a camera view for). The only other option is for a 'simple' external view which cannot be used during combat, which to a large extent defeats the desire for those who want such a view not for any combat advantage, but in order to make machinema movies. In other words, it's a poll which is very loaded in favour of people picking the 'no cameras' options, and with no real option for those who want to make movies. There's probably no better example of the old 'when did you stop beating your wife?' example of loaded questions than the poll choices we are presented with here.

 

[Memnoch]

That would be fine with me, as long as there were an equal number of "No" options added to balance the added "Yes" options.

There's probably no better example of the old 'when did you stop beating your wife?' example of loaded questions than the poll choices we are presented with here.

Hmmm, I think you must have visited the same site that I did yesterday. I'm sure I saw that "beating your wife" question somewhere yesterday.

 

[SpinBlade]

How about you ratchet down the attitude, bud. Sorry to burst your bubble, but this is a forum where we can discuss whatever we want to discuss regarding this game. THIS IS A FORUM. <Moderator Edit>

?!? We dont need to imagine a technology scenario for it, sorry to burst your bubble but THIS IS A GAME. Im ok with it if you wanna 'pretend' the 3d view is a drone, or a real camera..whatever. We're not going back to pre 1982 days where you can't even see your own ship. And I think the polls have spoken. This is getting really annoying.

 

[Lindonius]

Frontier had an external view.

I am expecting one in ED.

That is all.

 

[P4UL]

Frontier had an external view.

I am expecting one in ED.

That is all.

Agreed.

External view was in FE2 & FE so it should be in ED too!

 

[Shishakli]

There are some games out there where you can record your sessions and later play them back with free-cam mode which is great for making videos. Don't know if that's possible in ED depending on how the client/server solution is done.

This really is the best solution

 

[Dejay]

This really is the best solution

Not sure, because if you take screenshots or do machinima, you need real time feedback like adjusting both camera and the position or angle of your ship to match what you want to capture. It also doesn't allow you to just oogle your new ship or watch it take off.

And it's development intensive and prone to break old recordings when internal programming changes.

That being said, it would be an awesome feature in itself and would allow you to review fights and stuff.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Frontier had an external view.

I am expecting one in ED.

That is all.

Yes and he also had a rear view

 

[Patrick_68000]

FE2 also had an external view and I do not remember that it was breaking the immersion

 

[NeoRacer]

I wouldn't wanna use an external view if I was playing the game, in the middle of a dogfight. But some might say it makes up for situational awareness you lose when playing a game anyway, vs 'real life' so its a concession to yes..this is a game. Pretend all you want. If you want full immersion paint your room black and build a wooden cockpit/ship around your bed then we can talk..

Why would you build a camera drone and have things sticking in the frame? Lol XRebirth is a bad game and bad example, their drones also were used for hacking and fighting. Calling the feature "camera drone" is simply an ingame explanation, and doesn't carry any penalties. I full agree that the drone / external view should be free and able to move any way you want.

For visual glory!