New upgrade System - "Your time is valueable"- is a pure grind and waste of everyones time

killminster

killminster
Dbrn47 said:
So, in other words, you do have some understanding on the complaining.
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So in other words, Engineers was a grind and will still be a grind, it's not like that part of it is any worse or better.

There also appears to be some improvements along with the grind.

But hey, don't let that stop you from totally missing my point.
 

Dbrn47

Dbrn47
killminster said:
So in other words, Engineers was a grind and will still be a grind, it's not like that part of it is any worse or better.

There also appears to be some improvements along with the grind.

But hey, don't let that stop you from totally missing my point.
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I never dismissed the improvements.
 

Maka Gucci

Maka Gucci
Cmdr Eagleboy said:
No, I get G1 and enjoy benefits it gives to me. Then I get to G2 and play some more game before decide do I need more upgrades.

Majority of people calling for G5 shop want to min max their ships. It is fine idea but that's not what Engineers are about. And they shouldn't have been about in first place, because min max is sort of banter at party - you might enjoy it, but rest of the people find it borderline annoying because they have no really interest in it.
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There is no way you PvP at all. Do you even play in Open or is this a Solo specific opinion?

I do remember though one of the mods responding to the "that's not what engineers are about" thing before, asking who exactly said that's not what it's about?
I'd perhaps argue it's about variety in ship builds, that's just me.

Regardless of the way we personally see em, it has to also be about balance, in a game with no match making where new players in stock Sidewinders can be interdicted by fully engineered Corvettes, within their first moments of starting the game through the first option in the list of modes. Well then it's even more important to make sure everyone has access to level that playing field within a reasonable amount of time.

The initial time sink required to unlock the engineers is huge, the time sink in gaining access to rank lock ships is excessive, and the time sink required to make the money to buy those ships seems to grow nerf by nerf. This is not to speak of time spent waiting for HGEs to spawn, or crawling planet surfaces looking for mats.

Surely by the time it comes to actually configuring your ship, we don't need to pretentiously tag on any more excess to what is already a monumental struggle to get on a remotely even keel with your opponents.
 
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Knightshark

Knightshark
killminster said:
So in other words, Engineers was a grind and will still be a grind, it's not like that part of it is any worse or better.

There also appears to be some improvements along with the grind.

But hey, don't let that stop you from totally missing my point.
Click to expand...

It clearly is much worse for the normal player that doesn't aim for god rolls (that is a fact, like a mathematical fact, it's not an opinion or something than needs to be tested).
It clearly is much better for the PvP player (or general minmaxer) that does only aim for the optimum (that is also a fact).

There are improvements that do not mitigate the downsides for the "normal" player scenario above.
Of course, the improvements are even better for minmaxers.

But the biggest winners are the godrollers that can keep their overpowered modules that will not be obtainable in the new system (i.e. perfect secondaries AND experimental effects).
 
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Vasious

Vasious
I wonder if, with the fixed negatives, and selectable secondaries as experiential effects, I wonder;

Will the start zero and improve your way up, actual lead to where going always and only to grade 5 might not be the best option.
Going through the upgrades until you get a module which improvements are what you are after with the negatives not undoing them.

Take Drive Tuning, both reduce the Optimum mass; so you might not want a Grade 5 with the negatives as it might drop you optimal mass too much, and maximizing a grade 4 might be the aim.

Moving through each level lets you see the sweet spot.
 

Red Anders

Red Anders
GG7 said:
I'm personally done with this thread. The over the top idiocy of some of these dire predictions and flat out flawed conclusions is making my head hurt.

Why don't these people just find a game they actually enjoy playing? It is always the same group doing the griping and complaining every damned time.

If they would just wait and actually try the new stuff first they would actually have some credibility.
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Good question. By the way, why didn't you do that during this whole period that engineering has been causing you such misery?

Yeah, those people that are always griping and complaining really drag me down too.

I enjoy playing the game just fine by the way, I have about 3,000 hours in it. If I didn't enjoy it I wouldn't be playing it and I sure wouldn't be wasting my spare time posting on its forum.

You still seem to be struggling with the concept that what we have here is a thread full of people's opinions about something and they're simply not all the same. Do you always just assume that people who don't agree with you about something which is entirely subjective are dense, ignorant or a combination of both, or are you doing us a special favour?

Regarding your last line, if you'd just do the same thing before eulogising it as a huge improvement and calling anybody who expresses a different opinion clueless, dopey and stupid you never know, you might even have a little credibility yourself. Maybe.
 
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seko

seko
Logan Terrik said:
I have to agree. Very dissapointed with Frontier for going ahead with this change, especially after the high majority of the 'Focussed Feedback' on this change was very negative and the player base were clearly against this change.

Sandro Sammarco responded on the livestream saying that it won't actually take too long to upgrade a module from grade 1 to 5. That's not an acceptable response to this, IMO. 'Too long' is a subjective term, what's not too long for Sandy may be far too long for me. It seems like most players are agreeing that it is going to take too long for them, sadly Frontier have chosen to ignore this. :(

Maybe Sandy can do a quick livestream showing us how quick it is to upgrade a module from grade 1 to 5? Without his dev tools and having to collect the actual materials!
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There are other threads on here saying they welcome the changes and are looking forward to playing the beta
 

killminster

killminster
Knightshark said:
It clearly is much worse for the normal player that doesn't aim for god rolls (that is a fact, like a mathematical fact, it's not an opinion or something than needs to be tested).
It clearly is much better for the PvP player (or general minmaxer) that does only aim for the optimum (that is also a fact).

There are improvements that do not mitigate the downsides for the "normal" player scenario above.
Of course, the improvements are even better for minmaxers.

But the biggest winners are the godrollers that can keep their overpowered modules that will not be obtainable in the new system (i.e. perfect secondaries AND experimental effects).
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Really, is that a fact eh?

Because I consider myself a "normal" player, definitely not a PVPer and an amateur min/maxer at best.

The removal of the potential RNG kick in the teeth at the end of a laborious grind is a massive improvement to me and has got me interested in trying out engineering again even if there may be more grinding involved.
 

andrak

andrak
NecoMachina said:
Meet Eagleboy. His whole thing is he does mental gymnastics to twist literally anything to somehow look like FDEV are making the best decision possible.
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Also don't let the fact he's never owned one of the big 3 ships stop him from telling others how they should play the game.
 

znôrt

znôrt
thanks for the tragicomic fun in this thread. i am enjoying it in a sad way.
sandro first talked about 2.8 rolls for one grade. now he says 5?? what a troll :D

and we're just talking about the mere grind. not a single word about the fact that engineers have blurred all ships and have transformed combat into a wizard spell contest ... does this really bother no one but me??

how hyped i was when we first learned about engineers, and what an utter disgrace they have been to the game. it's such a shame.

seriously, why don't we just roll back to 2.0?

ok, i'm fine. it doesn't matter, after all, so let the show go on and let me have some more good laughs.
 

Genus

Genus
Mainfrezzer said:
If you watched the stream of today you saw that they showed off the new system.To make things short.
Forcing us to roll a module 5 times to "complete" rank 1 to progess further to rank 2 is just a waste of time and material as it is waste of time finding all those material.
The materials required to go through 2,3 and 4 to finally roll 5 is such a huge new time sink that you will probably have to spend all your time on RNG jesus in order to aquire the tidious bits for the grades noone wants and uses.
They even adressed it quickly and said thats not a new grind. LIES, Do you even play your own game?.

Solutions to this is

1.) Remove the barrier and let us roll staight to G5 from 0
2.) Remove the utter clutter of different Materials. Create a CLEAR and CONSISTENT way of aquiring Materials.
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Yup. It's amateur hour at the bar.

It's like they say...a certain level of expertise is required to discount bad advice and take on board good advice

I fear your offered solutions will fall on deaf ears.
 
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SocraticMammal

S
What seems silly is if you take for example a G5 damage mod of +40% and spread the individual incremental 20 or so rolls the gains from any individual roll are miniscule for the materials cost and unsatisfying for the investment but completely necessary for the end goal. Any other game would just have +10, +20, +30, +40 done. The new system just looks like an overly complicated way of doing the same thing but at finer, random, and more costly increments.
 

Ignition

I
The actual problem with Engineers is the material collection which is where we are spending the time and actually playing.


The process of collecting materials should have more gameplay and less rng.
 

Dbrn47

Dbrn47
Ignition said:
The actual problem with Engineers is the material collection which is where we are spending the time and actually playing.


The process of collecting materials should have more gameplay and less rng.
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I can agree with that. Like upgrading, hate bumbling about the bubble doing things I don't want to do to get the things I want. Seems a bit too close to home. ;)
 

CMDR Karrde Sun

CMDR Karrde Sun
I havent seen the stream yet, but you can imagine what happened right?

- They took away rng.
- They didn't want to just give it to people.
- The REPLACED RNG with materials collecting because it had to be replaced by something.

The root of the issue is you can't make people (especially lots of console people) experience wonder in the sandbox, and everyone who plays is just going around "getting stuff" as what they've picked to do. If i was frontier to avoid eroding the sandbox further id just bite it and make a cinematic single player story already (or just not care and stop changing design philosophy as well as iterating).
 
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