ok, VR, Stellar Forge- guess we have it pretty good.
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New upgrade System - "Your time is valueable"- is a pure grind and waste of everyones time
Ok, part of my prior comments in this thread must be stamped with a caution...
I missed the few moments of the stream where Sandro and Ed clicked the "Generate" button like 5 times on G1 before G2 became available. And if I understood right, they mention that it might be anywhere from like 2 to 5 rolls before progressing to the next Grade?
That is more than I realized. And yes, I agree that on the surface this would stretch the time to upgrade a module by the same 2x to 5x.
A worst case of 5 rolls per Grade, that's a whopping 60 materials for a good G5 Blueprint, per module. More than double what I was (mistakenly) expecting.
That gives me some concern. True, those 60 Materials would give me 30 G5 roll attempts with the current system. However, I'd possibly need 30+ rares for those G5 rolls in the current system, compared to maybe just 5+ in the upcoming change. So maybe not as bad as it sounds.
I will be seriously interested to see how much the Material Trader serves to shorten the Materials hunting time that will be required for that, once the beta is open. Hopefully I have enough time to put into experimenting with this.
I missed the few moments of the stream where Sandro and Ed clicked the "Generate" button like 5 times on G1 before G2 became available. And if I understood right, they mention that it might be anywhere from like 2 to 5 rolls before progressing to the next Grade?
That is more than I realized. And yes, I agree that on the surface this would stretch the time to upgrade a module by the same 2x to 5x.
A worst case of 5 rolls per Grade, that's a whopping 60 materials for a good G5 Blueprint, per module. More than double what I was (mistakenly) expecting.
That gives me some concern. True, those 60 Materials would give me 30 G5 roll attempts with the current system. However, I'd possibly need 30+ rares for those G5 rolls in the current system, compared to maybe just 5+ in the upcoming change. So maybe not as bad as it sounds.
I will be seriously interested to see how much the Material Trader serves to shorten the Materials hunting time that will be required for that, once the beta is open. Hopefully I have enough time to put into experimenting with this.
I think this guy gets it, and gives the best summary so far.
The bump, not clearly defined in the live stream, in the new G5 over the old G5 is probably intended to mitigate the OP-ness of god roles, and encourage people to re-roll 'god rolled' modules. I don't have any 'god rolled' modules though, so I can't really say if that will play out or not.
Frankly, I will likely not do engineering after this change, since it's way, way more time needed to engy up a new ship vs the old system. Maybe FD could meet us in the middle, and after you've done one G5 with an engy, you can start at Max G3 or Min G4 with the next from the same engineer.
It's not "a lot more materials", actually. Based on the down-conversion factor of 1:3 they showed, you just need the mats for two G5 rolls to fully upgrade through all the ranks below to the start of G5. Actually this sounds pretty fair, given that the stats are supposed to be slightly better.
However, the down-conversion will take a lot of clicks and potentially visits to different brokers (manufactured, data, raw). To get rid of the needless clicking orgy, they could just add a button to jump from zero to the bottom of a rank at 2x material cost for that rank. On average, this would be about the same cost.
It would even be easy to add in the current interface they showed: just click on a currently locked rank, and you get a dialoge with "unlock rank y/n" and the associated cost.
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I find the grind odd.
Why do i pay this engineer to learn how to do the 1-4 rating upgrades when he already knows all these things.
Am i working with THE engineer who knows Tier 5 upgrades or one of his interns?
I know that I am not the one learning to make upgrades.
Why do i pay this engineer to learn how to do the 1-4 rating upgrades when he already knows all these things.
Am i working with THE engineer who knows Tier 5 upgrades or one of his interns?
I know that I am not the one learning to make upgrades.
They pressed it three times. It is all mooth though as it will change heavily during beta.
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You mean you played the beta and know how the stuff works when playing yourself? Awesome. Can I borrow your time machine?
Don't you know? He really is CMDR Thrust from Bradford.
If you had all the materials being able to just push the G5 button and have the maximum amount of mats to get there deducted from your inventory would be good.
Same result, same amount of mats or even more. Less time.
To a first approximation I think you will now need (rolls x items) _times_ more materials than before.
Speculating: suppose it is 30 rolls per item, 3 materials per roll and 20 items per ship, then you will need 1800 materials per ship. And obviously some ships/loadouts will require more or less items. Obviously, also, these numbers could be different depending on personal choice and the real number of rolls and materials needed.
So 1800 materials is 30 hours per minute per ship. (If it takes on average 1 minute to find a material it is 30 hours per ship.). I will leave others to estimate the average minutes it would take to find/RNGesus grant the materials – including planning, flying, finding etc.
ps. We could write a proper equation for this, but I think the above at least provides food for thought. I also hoping I have made an error. Presumably the Devs have already done the real calculation when designing the scheme.
Speculating: suppose it is 30 rolls per item, 3 materials per roll and 20 items per ship, then you will need 1800 materials per ship. And obviously some ships/loadouts will require more or less items. Obviously, also, these numbers could be different depending on personal choice and the real number of rolls and materials needed.
So 1800 materials is 30 hours per minute per ship. (If it takes on average 1 minute to find a material it is 30 hours per ship.). I will leave others to estimate the average minutes it would take to find/RNGesus grant the materials – including planning, flying, finding etc.
ps. We could write a proper equation for this, but I think the above at least provides food for thought. I also hoping I have made an error. Presumably the Devs have already done the real calculation when designing the scheme.
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I believe frontier said the average was 3 rolls til next level.
Thanks. So if it 15 rolls to grade 5, then the original speculation should be halved.
So 15 hours per 3 materials (per roll) per minute (to find).
See this:
Also, when grinding those specific G5 mats you surely get a bunch of unrelated G1-G5 mats which through Material Traders are usable in the new system. So the new system has more clicking and unavoidable visits to Material Traders but not much difference in material grinding.
My estimate is that for people
- who were happy with one or two G5 rolls, the new system requires some more grind
- who were happy with three to four G5 rolls, the grinding is about the same
- who absolutely had to do five G5 rolls or more, the new system is easier
- who were happy with G1-G4 mods won't see meaningful difference in grind
Claims that the new system requires "order of magnitude" or "five times" more grind are just full of it. Fears<>Facts.
I'm happy because the new annoying clicky-monster is better than the previous RNG-abomination and because all mats are useful.
Wait, you claim that those "who were happy with three to four G5 rolls, the grinding is about the same" and "Claims that the new system requires "order of magnitude" or "five times" more grind are just full of it" yet we will have to do "three to four" rolls for EVERY, SINGLE grade prior to g5, which automatically means an ABSOLUTE minimum of FIVE times more grind for ANY single item that is to be engineered. And what I saw on the stream is that you MIGHT get lucky and need ONLY three to four rolls per grade. You MIGHT, not you WILL.
Moreover previously I could get a very good, if not incredible, g5 roll on the very first attempt (and I have) and now it would be a guaranteed chore to even get to g5 in the first place. I'd have to spend hours just clicking though throw-away rolls just to get to g5 to engineer a SINGLE ship and everything on it. Plus a significantly MORE time to gather that many materials. I'd rather fly to Hutton every time and have access to the old (current) engineering system instead.
Your claim how those of us that have actually went to school and have a grasp on elementary mathematics is... ironic at best. Given your inability to comprehend as little I'm surprised you are able to use a computer in the first place...
Maybe you should do some counting again
... for most of stuff is needed lets say 5x g5 rolls for decent result. It means in case you already are on G5 unlocked 5x3 mats (15). In new system it is 3-5 rolls per grade, so lets say 4 and it means in total 20 rolls (around 50 mats). so 5(15) vs 20(50) ... clear improvement . These numbers will not look so bad in real, still there will be the need for more as twice of time for modding, if you do not aimed before on perfect rolls.
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Maybe you should do some counting again
Ok, I'll try... Well, I'll just estimate. It's good enough.
for most of stuff is needed lets say 5x g5 rolls for decent result. It means in case you already are on G5 unlocked 5x3 mats (15). In new system it is 3-5 rolls per grade, so lets say 4 and it means in total 20 rolls (around 50 mats). so 5(15) vs 20(50) ... clear improvement
Ok, so we ground stuff for 5x G5 rolls. While we did that we found plenty of G1-G4 mats too. In the old system they were useless. In the new system they cover, say, half of the mats we need for G1-G4. Because we need only 3x G5 rolls to get decent results, we trade 2x G5 mats to get the rest of required G1-G4 mats. Then we just roll (about four times more than we used to).
Summary: grinding mats was the same, but we had to do more mat trading and more rolling. The new system had more predictable result.