Proposal Discussion Kill Warrant Scanner Feedback

[Ian Doncaster]

I think here lies a flaw with the CG system itself, not the (old or new) KWS. If a CG says "help us defeat the sudden spike in pirate activity" then there better be a huge spike in local pirate activity.

Yes, absolutely. Add multiple wings of heavily-equipped high bounty pirates to supercruise, so that traders need to either be well armed themselves, or actively protected by hunters, to get the cargo through.

(Things like CNB, special CZs, increasing danger levels in RES ... it keeps people in the system, but it still means the trade and hunting CGs are mostly independent of each other)

 

[Kilostream]

.... proper MMO, not a half-way house - no Solo mode, no Private Groups - pure Open play only. And with that, a properly designed system for crime, piracy, alliances, trading and interaction with other human players, mining, etc. Instead, we can expect a patch-work bodge job coming in this 'Beyond' series - it's written all over these forums... So yeah, they should have just asked me.

You've just described EvE Online - I play that too; it's got all you say you want, plus trading and the markets are at least as brutal a pvp arena as the space fights (if not more so).
I like Elite because it gives me the hotas compatibility and the feeling of really piloting my own ship that I don't get with Eve - it's a different pace, a different skills set, and at a different scale - if you haven't played it before, you should try it, I think it'll tick a lot of boxes for you.

I too, am worried about a patch-work bodge job with this KWS re-work proposal, but I appreciate the fact that they're trying to gauge what the majority want, and are engaging with the player base and it increases my faith that whatever we end up with will be FDs best effort at keeping as many people as possible as happy as possible - it's not clear to me that using elements of the democratic process to steer them to an end result is a terrible way of developing a game.

And finally - surely you had noticed that this is a re-vamp of a single player game with online connectivity and (very basic) wing capability tacked-on? It's not a built-from-the-ground-up MMO like Eve is, it's a single player game with some bells n whistles - note how you can do everything without leaving solo - you try and single-handedly set up POS infrastructure with jump bridges and cyno jammers in Eve and see how apparent the gulf is between elite and a 'proper' MMO - the single player aspect is relevant in this case, even if you don't like it - I think that's just a legacy of this game being descended from one of, if not the, definitive early space sim.

 

[wstephenson]

I think here lies a flaw with the CG system itself, not the (old or new) KWS. If a CG says "help us defeat the sudden spike in pirate activity" then there better be a huge spike in local pirate activity. Quintuple all pirate spawn rates. Turn all RES into HAZRES for the duration of the CG. Make the nav beacon compromised. Spawn special "pirates vs police" conflict zones. A system with a bounty hunt CG should be the place where you want to hunt, not the place where you sell your bounties from somewhere else.

Quite. It's as if there should be a BGS state due to the 'other' CG in that system's increased trade/mining/whatever activity that naturally invites more pirates to the system, in the same way that the player trader activity attracts the griefer set.

 

[madbilly]

Hi Sandro,

So, no Interpol anymore?

e.g. In a jurisdiction controlled by the Beige Cowboys (a Federally aligned faction), bounties issued by the Blandro Corporation (an independent faction in the system) would be detected, but no license to kill would be issued. However, bounties issued by the Folk of No Remarko (another Federally aligned faction in the system) would be detected and would provide a license to kill, as both factions involved (the faction controlling the jurisdiction and the faction issuing the bounty) share the same superpower alignment.

I need to visit this system!

I know this is OT, but do I only have to be logged in to the game for my notoriety to decay? Game running at the start screen only? Or sat in a station hangar? So, if I were of such a mind, I could go nuts, take my notoriety up to 10 (oh, why doesn't it go up to 11?!) park in a station, or even exit to the start screen, and leave my computer running (or boot up a laptop to save energy energy) for 20 hours solely to burn my notoriety away? Doesn't sound like much of a disincentive.

Cheers

 

[Retrograde]

Seems good to me, but please devote some UI time to this. It should be made really clear which ships you can kill with impunity and which you cannot. Perhaps a diamond shape on the scanner?

And this might be a good place to add some new voiced lines, so after completion of scan, you get:

• "No bounties in current jurisdiction"
• "Local bounties found, aggressive action not permitted."
• "Local bounties found, elimination of target has been sanctioned."
• ...

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Seems good to me, but please devote some UI time to this. It should be made really clear which ships you can kill with impunity and which you cannot. Perhaps a diamond shape on the scanner?

And this might be a good place to add some new voiced lines, so after completion of scan, you get:

• "No bounties in current jurisdiction"
• "Local bounties found, aggressive action not permitted."
• "Local bounties found, elimination of target has been sanctioned."
• ...

I honestly think just changing the ship status to Wanted would be enough indication, although additional info is always nice.

That could also work the other way around for the indicator on the right that tells you if you're breaking the law.
If you get scanned and they detect an applicable bounty.

 

[Alec Turner]

So... When does Beyond 3.0 go live?

Next Tuesday!

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/408105-Elite-Dangerous-Beyond-Chapter-One-Release-Date

 

[StefanOS]

Hello Commanders!
In anarchy jurisdictions (all lawless factions are becoming anarchies, as the distinction is ultimately unecessary) the Kill Warrant scanner will detect all bounties for all factions in the system. Clearly, no crimes are committed in the anarchy jurisdiction, but detected bounties can be claimed.

Hello Sando, "no crimes are committed in the anarchy jurisdiction", I disagree!

If I kill in BOBA FET's anarchy system - BOBA FET's miners in his local RES he wont put a bounty on me? I can kill his trading ships and he will not care about it?

 

[CMDR Dreamstate]

You know would I would like most out of the KWS when it concerns bounty hunting?

Nevermind credit rewards, let it give us more points towards your RANK!

 

[Shanaeri]

Next Tuesday!

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/408105-Elite-Dangerous-Beyond-Chapter-One-Release-Date

So probably no time to do anything to change the KWS in 3.0. Looks like it'll most likely be as it was in 3.0 beta.

 

[Aeronite]

Quite. It's as if there should be a BGS state due to the 'other' CG in that system's increased trade/mining/whatever activity that naturally invites more pirates to the system, in the same way that the player trader activity attracts the griefer set.

I really like this idea. Instead of trying make the kws work for cg, rework cg to work better with the new kws. Therefore I propose the following:

Due to increased illegal activity obviously bounties in the system should be increased to show that.
CG creating special conflict zones such as local cops vs robbers. This is intended to make the galaxy feel more alive and react to current events. I'd also like to see this applied to Thargoid activity at some point.
CG creates increased criminal activity in supercruise. This already happens with real players NPC's should do this as well

Which leads me to my next proposals.
NPC's dropping out of supercruise to normal space to pirate your cargo, effectivly being able set traps. Also if you aren't fast enough in dealing with praites, you could have too many pirates trying to steal your booty. Not sure if players can see other players in normal space from supercruise but if not add that.
I'm pretty sure this is already in works, increase Friendly Fire threshold in cg created conflict zones.

 

[Aeronite]

Quite. It's as if there should be a BGS state due to the 'other' CG in that system's increased trade/mining/whatever activity that naturally invites more pirates to the system, in the same way that the player trader activity attracts the griefer set.

Really like this idea. Instead of trying make the kws work for cg, rework cg to work better with the new kws. Therefore I propose the following:

Due to increased illegal activity obviously bounties in the system should be increased to show that.
CG creating special conflict zones such as local cops vs robbers. This is intended to make the galaxy feel more alive and react to current events. I'd also like to see this applied to Thargoid activity at some point.
CG creates increased criminal activity in supercruise. This already happens with real players NPC's should do this as well

Which leads me to my next proposals.
NPC's dropping out of supercruise to normal space to pirate your cargo, effectivly being able set traps. Also if you aren't fast enough in dealing with praites, you could have too many pirates trying to steal your booty. Not sure if players can see other players in normal space from supercruise but if not add that.
I'm pretty sure this is already in works, increase Friendly Fire threshold in cg created conflict zones.

 

[Kaocraft]

Hello Commanders!

We've taken a step back and revaluated what we want the Kill Warrant Scanner to achieve, as well as look at how it fits in with the bigger picture of the update crime system. Part of the issue we run into with the KWS is how it interacts with Interstellar bounties. We've decided to more clearly delineate the roles of these to features:

• The KWS reveals bounties for all jurisdictions in the local system.
• The KWS provides a license to kill for all bounties associated with the jurisdiction’s superpower.
• The KWS removes any reputation loss from destroying wanted ships, unless the wanted ship belongs to a criminal faction.

With this suite of rules, we can see that the Kill Warrant scanner becomes a clearly defined tool. It communicates with all security channels within the system, allowing Commanders to fully exploit bounty hunting opportunities where they are.

This allows the Kill Warrant scanner to be effective in gaining reputation, tactically supporting factions and of course, increasing profits (we'd be looking at making sure the right levels of crime are linked to factions in the system). It also means that bounty hunters can continue to work in anarchies.

Whilst it does lose some power being limited to the system where it is being used, we've offset this by allowing the Kill Warrant scanner to legitimise attack when dealing with bounties associated with a superpower. We've also made it more robust in protecting the bounty hunter's reputation when working a system.

This also allows Interstellar bounties to remain relevant:

• Interstellar Bounties provide a license to kill in all associated jurisdictions.
• Interstellar bounties are packed up for the criminal, unpacked for the bounty hunter.

Interstellar bounties have a specific role - to make criminals legal targets in every associated jurisdiction. Basically, once you have an Interstellar bounty for a superpower (such as the Federation), all bounties from Federal aligned factions will be visible - and legally claimable - to anyone performing a basic scan on you whilst in a Federal aligned jurisdiction. Furthermore, the bounty hunter still retains the ability to claim or avoid individual bounties within an Interstellar bounty, allowing them to interact with the background simulation as before.

These rules also mitigate one of our bugbears: superpowers honouring each others bounties. Whilst this can happen at a local level using the Kill Warrant scanner, such bounties are local bounties connected with the faction rather than the superpower.

Once a bounty becomes Interstellar, the superpowers get involved, and they take a different approach - only accepting claims within their jurisdiction.

Overall, we're quite happy with this proposal, to the point of looking into making it happen, so feedback is greatly appreciated.

I hope I'm reading and understanding this correctly, because it all sounds very good to me. On this point in particular:

• The KWS reveals bounties for all jurisdictions in the local system.

Does this mean that if I am in let's say the Wubba System, which is home to 4 factions: Onion Priests, Cat Warriors, Poison Snails, and Space Frogs; with Space Frogs as the controlling faction, can I use the KWS to bounty hunt in the system and exclusively support say the Poison Snails, by accumulating and ONLY turning in bounties associated with that faction? The problem I had with the Beta KWS and most of your earlier change proposals was that there was no way to use bounty hunting to support anything other than the controlling faction in a system, because you wouldn't *get* the specific local bounties for those other factions anymore. It LOOKS like your current solution addresses this, but I wanted to ask and make sure i'd understood correctly before getting all excited.

Anyway, thank you for working on this and taking feedback!

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

So probably no time to do anything to change the KWS in 3.0. Looks like it'll most likely be as it was in 3.0 beta.

Not necessarily. Lets wait and see. They maybe able to sneak in the change before it goes live.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander Kaocraft!

I hope I'm reading and understanding this correctly, because it all sounds very good to me. On this point in particular:

• The KWS reveals bounties for all jurisdictions in the local system.

Does this mean that if I am in let's say the Wubba System, which is home to 4 factions: Onion Priests, Cat Warriors, Poison Snails, and Space Frogs; with Space Frogs as the controlling faction, can I use the KWS to bounty hunt in the system and exclusively support say the Poison Snails, by accumulating and ONLY turning in bounties associated with that faction? The problem I had with the Beta KWS and most of your earlier change proposals was that there was no way to use bounty hunting to support anything other than the controlling faction in a system, because you wouldn't *get* the specific local bounties for those other factions anymore. It LOOKS like your current solution addresses this, but I wanted to ask and make sure i'd understood correctly before getting all excited.

Anyway, thank you for working on this and taking feedback!

Correct. The Kill Warrant scanner would detect bounties for Onions, Cats, Snails and Frogs. It would then be up to you which ones you actually turned in and claimed.

Also remember the license to kill: If you were in the Onion Priest's jurisdiction, and they were aligned with the Empire, and the Poison Snails were Empire aligned, then you would be legally allowed to attack ships with Poison Snail bounties, even though you were not in their jurisdiction.

 

[Shanaeri]

Off topic comment. But please can we have all these example factions people have been using in game please... Space Loaches...Beige cowboys... Onion priests, poison snails... cat warriors...etc etc

 

[rootsrat]

Hello Commander Kaocraft!



Correct. The Kill Warrant scanner would detect bounties for Onions, Cats, Snails and Frogs. It would then be up to you which ones you actually turned in and claimed.

Also remember the license to kill: If you were in the Onion Priest's jurisdiction, and they were aligned with the Empire, and the Poison Snails were Empire aligned, then you would be legally allowed to attack ships with Poison Snail bounties, even though you were not in their jurisdiction.

So in this example, when we come across this ship, it would be marked as Clean (because we're in Onion's jurisdiction). We then scan the ship, it turns out it has a bounty in Snails (but NONE in Onion!). Onion and Snails are both Empire factions.

So now we are in Onion jur. with Snails wanted ship. Will it show as Wanted (because we have a kill warrant on it now), even though it's not actually wanted in this jurisdiction?

In other words:

1. Factions A and B are both Empire.
2. We are in jurisdiction A.
3. The ship we scanned with KWS reveals a bounty in B, but not in A.
4. Will it show as Wanted?
5. If so, will it show as Wanted just to us (because we've scanned it) or to everyone else too? What about wingmen?

 

[Kilostream]

qq: in an anarchy system, where crimes don't count for anything, how would it be possible for a local bounty to even occur? It still seems to me that the KWS would be fairly useless in an anarchy system?

Are you perhaps conflating 'bounty' with 'crime'? I'm not aware of any reason why a private corporation or agency in an Anarchy system could not declare someone wanted and take out contracts against them - who could stop them? It's not as if it'd be illegal, or anything!

In fact, now I think on it, it'd probably be a popular way of obtaining some desired justice if somebody had swooped down and blown up your skimmers and there was no recourse to system authorities because you were in an Anarchy system.

 

[nrage]

• The KWS provides a license to kill for all bounties associated with the jurisdiction’s superpower.

.. and what happens in an independent system? Do you have license to kill if the target has a controlling faction bounty?

 

[MillennialDawn]

You can't have anarchy be completely free havens for criminals, when no other system type is truly free of criminals.

Yes, anarchy systems should be SAFER havens for criminals, and offer more opportunities for them to make money and ranking (for players). But the KWS shouldn't be useless against NPCs in these systems for sure. These systems should also offer bounty hunters a way to make money (and of course anarchy systems can be flipped to a lawful state with enough work).

That's why, if you check all my feedback, I indicated that anarchy have some semblance of law and order - just not very effective. KWS should pay less in anarchy because of the chaotic, inefficient government. Also, this is why I specifically suggested EMPTY systems being classified as LAWLESS as there is no government or authority in such systems. It is EMPTY systems that should be the safe-havens for the criminal, containing hidden pirate bases, etc. (a KWS should not function in empty systems that contain no Nav Beacon, nor with Compromised Beacons - and should pay less in Anarchy systems) - not simply anarchy.

The fact is, looking at the feedback from Mr Sammacro, he seems to be of the opinion that there is no distinction between lawless and anarchy states (much depends on how the term 'anarchy' is being interpreted). Yet, the anarchy systems in the game belie this claim.

For a system to be considered in a state of anarchy, or lawlessness, there must be a lack of government - law and order (one interpretation). In Anarchy systems as they currently stand now, there clearly is a semblance of law and order. Usually there are smoothly operating space stations - and I've even seen system security forces (can you commit crime in the vicinity of anarchy space stations, and are there security forces defending these stations?). The space stations are not in a state of chaos, but run as smoothly and orderly as elsewhere. The difference is that you can commit a crime in the system at large and no crime is reported - and are supposed to be attacked more frequently (which doesn't really happen).

Also, in the anarchy system there are local factions that are said to be in control - just like in every other system. This simply is not a state of anarchy. Thus, completely empty systems - void of all government and security - can be considered to be true anarchy or lawless systems. No factions, just factionless, lawless gangs gathering for a common cause - some just killing for the fun of killing (or because a Commander strayed into the wrong territory).

Anarchy systems have become so pathetic now, that an attacking ship only attacks if there's something worthwhile in the cargo hold of the ship. However, in a truly lawless system, there would be attacks for no other reason than because they don't like you (you're in the wrong gang, or not part of their gang). Anarchy systems need to be completely reworked, or, as I have suggested, some of the empty systems need to be utilise for this type of thing.