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If you find EVERYTHING in the game boring and repetitious then you should probably consider finding something else to do with your time.
There are plenty of games I've gotten bored with - so I stopped playing them. It really isn't rocket science.
Grinding isn't the player's fault
- Thread starter WeavingBird1917
- Start date
If you find EVERYTHING in the game boring and repetitious then you should probably consider finding something else to do with your time.
There are plenty of games I've gotten bored with - so I stopped playing them. It really isn't rocket science.
There's a whole lot of discussion going on here that seems predicated on whether Elite does or does not have a grind.
I think anybody trying to deny that there's a grind is not being very honest.
I also think that anybody saying Elite is "just a game" is also not being wholly honest.
Elite does not exist to be 'just a game', it exists to be an immersive spaceship piloting experience in a futuristic version of our very own Milky Way galaxy.
Ergo, elements of realism - that is, things that are like real life - are to be expected. Like having to put in time and effort (same as anyone else) to get bigger and better things, that is, having to grind.
Also like real life, how you go about that grind can be potentially enjoyable, but often times the reality is that it isn't. Especially if your job involves the same mundane task without much in the way of variation (something that many companies actively seek to do something about for the sake of their employees).
Saying things like "don't like it just play something else" doesn't help the conversation, nor does it help the game.
This also goes for this little snippet from many pages back:
As well as it should have. Frontier made a big, dumb mistake when they mentioned the idea of ship teleportation live on their event stream - that's an idea that should never have been introduced and never would have belonged in Elite, because Elite is not just some game that exists for the sake of being a game; it is much more than that.
That's why the community voted against it - because, playing the game, we recognize it as being something that is fun *because* it strives to be realistic, as opposed to being Pokemon in space.
In that sense, I'll go back on what I said and say that if you want a game that exists to just be a game, where everything is accessible to you and there isn't that realism - then maybe another experience would better suit your desires.
However, I will also say that I truely believe that everyone out in the world today could and ought to enjoy Elite for what it is; that is, it's an experience I think anybody can enjoy.
All that said, the experience it has to offer has...a lot of room for improvement. It does indeed carry a lot of repetition that perhaps is not necessary. It has a lot of flaws where combat and balance are concerned. It has a long To-Do list of anticipated features that do not yet exist, and it has a lot of currently implemented features that have long needed improvement and expansion (things like HUD color customization and USS's).
In a nutshell, all'o'y'all ought to quit waffling back and forth over what grind does or does not mean and rather focus on constructive criticism on what Fdev could do better, in the hopes that criticism adds to the To Do list.
I think anybody trying to deny that there's a grind is not being very honest.
I also think that anybody saying Elite is "just a game" is also not being wholly honest.
Elite does not exist to be 'just a game', it exists to be an immersive spaceship piloting experience in a futuristic version of our very own Milky Way galaxy.
Ergo, elements of realism - that is, things that are like real life - are to be expected. Like having to put in time and effort (same as anyone else) to get bigger and better things, that is, having to grind.
Also like real life, how you go about that grind can be potentially enjoyable, but often times the reality is that it isn't. Especially if your job involves the same mundane task without much in the way of variation (something that many companies actively seek to do something about for the sake of their employees).
Saying things like "don't like it just play something else" doesn't help the conversation, nor does it help the game.
This also goes for this little snippet from many pages back:
As well as it should have. Frontier made a big, dumb mistake when they mentioned the idea of ship teleportation live on their event stream - that's an idea that should never have been introduced and never would have belonged in Elite, because Elite is not just some game that exists for the sake of being a game; it is much more than that.
That's why the community voted against it - because, playing the game, we recognize it as being something that is fun *because* it strives to be realistic, as opposed to being Pokemon in space.
In that sense, I'll go back on what I said and say that if you want a game that exists to just be a game, where everything is accessible to you and there isn't that realism - then maybe another experience would better suit your desires.
However, I will also say that I truely believe that everyone out in the world today could and ought to enjoy Elite for what it is; that is, it's an experience I think anybody can enjoy.
All that said, the experience it has to offer has...a lot of room for improvement. It does indeed carry a lot of repetition that perhaps is not necessary. It has a lot of flaws where combat and balance are concerned. It has a long To-Do list of anticipated features that do not yet exist, and it has a lot of currently implemented features that have long needed improvement and expansion (things like HUD color customization and USS's).
In a nutshell, all'o'y'all ought to quit waffling back and forth over what grind does or does not mean and rather focus on constructive criticism on what Fdev could do better, in the hopes that criticism adds to the To Do list.
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I'm all for reducing what some may perceive as "grind" in the game- but what I'm not for is turning it into the equivalent of a quarter arcade game because some simply can't be bothered with a time/effort investment. Some time and effort is required.
Much like ship transfer delays- I "get" why people want instateleport ships, but they're clearly not "getting" why it could be absolutely horrible for game balance in an "optional multiplayer" game. Sure it doesn't hurt anyone in Solo to have such, but in areas like Open it could be disastrous. 20 buddies get together and zergswarm a player in a particular area instantly? Am I the only one seeing things like this happening?
Engineers and the new module system requirements are absolutely HORRID, compared to previously. There's really no two ways about it- now we're forced to perform the exact same actions (albeit with more/less material/material trader) for each and every module instead of skipping straight to G5 if we've got materials in hand.
Guardians IMO is not a "grind", it's a one-time process that unlocks technology being available forever from the moment you've performed those steps. Is it "tedious"? Some may think so, some may want for more "interactive/immersive" gameplay to be involved, but it's certainly not the same as Engineers. (can you just imagine if it had the same requirement to perform the same steps again and again???)
Are some tasks repetitive in this game? SURE they are! Absolutely! And guess what, much like real life, there's really no way around it. You want to pay your bills? You gotta work or make a living somehow.
At least we're not required to make our CMDRS eat, take bio breaks, perform other tasks on a regular basis, etc. that we would normally have to repeat.
IMO it really comes down to one thing - you get what you put into it.
Much like ship transfer delays- I "get" why people want instateleport ships, but they're clearly not "getting" why it could be absolutely horrible for game balance in an "optional multiplayer" game. Sure it doesn't hurt anyone in Solo to have such, but in areas like Open it could be disastrous. 20 buddies get together and zergswarm a player in a particular area instantly? Am I the only one seeing things like this happening?
Engineers and the new module system requirements are absolutely HORRID, compared to previously. There's really no two ways about it- now we're forced to perform the exact same actions (albeit with more/less material/material trader) for each and every module instead of skipping straight to G5 if we've got materials in hand.
Guardians IMO is not a "grind", it's a one-time process that unlocks technology being available forever from the moment you've performed those steps. Is it "tedious"? Some may think so, some may want for more "interactive/immersive" gameplay to be involved, but it's certainly not the same as Engineers. (can you just imagine if it had the same requirement to perform the same steps again and again???)
Are some tasks repetitive in this game? SURE they are! Absolutely! And guess what, much like real life, there's really no way around it. You want to pay your bills? You gotta work or make a living somehow.
At least we're not required to make our CMDRS eat, take bio breaks, perform other tasks on a regular basis, etc. that we would normally have to repeat.
IMO it really comes down to one thing - you get what you put into it.
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What's got real life to do with a game?
So does the rank grind for the Corvette or Cutter. Those are still grinds.
"Some" may think so? Sorry but you're rapidly losing credibility here. Stretching 2 hours of content into a 12 hour or longer grind isn't some sort of "edge" case for whether it's a grind or not. It's a grind. Full stop.
The Guardian unlocks are basically exactly like Engineering. Logging in/out to reset obelisks was actually more annoying than some of the Engieering mat grinds and it involved exactly the same buggy, imbalanced RNG process that FD has been using since 2.1 dropped.
Except that this is a game, not "work" where I'm being paid to do something that is boring or repetitive. I expect the game to be developed to an appropriate standard. The devs are trying to get away with creating 2 hours of content that I am expected to repeat over and over to reach a total of 12 hours of grind. That is not 12 hours of "content", that is 2 hours of content and 10 hours of grind where I have to repeat that same content over and over.
Actually some games do this, for various reasons. However FD has yet to even give us a rudimentary version of space legs so I am not really worried about having to remember to eat in the game because I can't even get out of my chair.
Which is exactly why the game is in the current state. FD has been putting the bare minimum amount of development efforts into the game and think that players are going to repeat it over and over instead of expecting new content.
Indeed. One would ask the same question of those implying Frontier apparently doesn't "value their time".
Speaking of which, I believe I've wasted enough of my own debating in this rather pointless thread in which those (at least seem) clearly entrenched will find absolutely any excuse to dismiss points made by others because it simply doesn't sit well with their perceived view of "wasting time" in a video game.
Good luck to all!
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TheMegaTurnip
Banned
Good stuff. I agree some effort should be required, but not to the tune of several hundred hours for a very small step.
Hmm, yeah i can see what you mean about the Zergmobbing, but people do that anyways, they just order all thier pew pews down to the CG in the afternoon, then use them later when they sign back in in the afternoon so the point is mute really :/
And yep, another thing that i agree with you on. The RNGneers has better outcomes yes, but do the devs seriosly loe RNG that much that they simply HAD to add it. Why not one roll for one, two for two, up and up till five for five. Again another convoluted time sink the game could do without. Especially considering how they were saying engineering should be open to everyone. HA.
And another yep. The guardians thing was initiay a little long winded, but now it has a much stronger argument for being content than 90% of the other stuff without a doubt.
But here's where i start to trail off... There should always be an element of work in these games put in by the player, but this one is too much like reality in that sense.
It's a game. Its used to escape the real world. There are very few people who like having to work in thier downtime.
FDev needs to understand and respect that.
For the last scentence isnt that why we still get vapid and empty content delivered? The Devs seem to think that we are amused doing the same thing on repeat and probably don't feel the need to push out new stuff at a decent level.
TheMegaTurnip
Banned
Erm how did you get to that exactly?
Real life is real life. But to extend the same kind of things you do in your day to day into the game you use for downtime. Is downright disrespectful. FDev aren't getting the bat for no reason on that one.
Alot of people seem to think it's the case.
EDIT: This does not detract from the ingame postives, which are still there, it's just a little bit annoying to come home after 12 hours of real grind, only to be welcomed with more in a game, it's just not good game design.
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I'll make this my last response in this thread, because you clearly took the time to really digest the information, rather than be dismissive for cause.
How I "got to that" is some have the perception that their "time is being wasted" and therefore "grind". Time spent is time spent IRL, regardless of if you're playing a video game, taking a walk down the street, driving your car, or performing some menial task for gainful employment.
Now in this regard- I'm very aware of how much time I spend playing "video games". I prioritize it. There's certain games I just will not play because I don't believe for the time investment it provides value. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. All I'm saying is perhaps people would be better served by questioning their own "time/value" assessment and make a decision accordingly, rather than expecting Frontier to magically solve their problem for them. Not trying to sound "harsh" here, but it's not Frontier's responsibility to determine each person's investment/value portfolio in a video game.
The point is - what I see as "valueable" for my time invested may be different from yours, or Devari's or Stigbobs. It's impossible to expect Frontier to address each and every person's beliefs. That we must do for ourselves.
Feel free to agree to disagree.
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That is exactly what is happening. Threads like this one are very clearly telling FD that the quality and quantity of "content" they're delivering is not good enough. It's up to FD to decide if they should take this into account and consider developing more useful game content. Even though I'm sure they would prefer to simply continue to sell cosmetics to players that becomes less lucrative for them if those players have moved to other games due to the lack of content in Elite.
Keep in mind here the feedback is not all bad. Most players have no problem with the Guardian structure content, for around 2 hours or so. The issue is being expected to repeat that content for another 10 hours of grind after that point. Same with the rescue missions when the stations were attacked by the Thargoids. It was actually rather engaging trying to land inside a burning station to rescue passengers and really gave a good sense of the urgency of the evacuation process. The point here is that FD is clearly capable of making good content if they take the time to develop it, we just need to see more of it on a regular basis and far less reliance on RNG and grind.
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TheMegaTurnip
Banned
I'll make this my last response in this thread, because you clearly took the time to really digest the information, rather than be dismissive for cause.
How I "got to that" is some have the perception that their "time is being wasted" and therefore "grind". Time spent is time spent IRL, regardless of if you're playing a video game, taking a walk down the street, driving your car, or performing some menial task for gainful employment.
Now in this regard- I'm very aware of how much time I spend playing "video games". I prioritize it. There's certain games I just will not play because I don't believe for the time investment it provides value. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. All I'm saying is perhaps people would be better served by questioning their own "time/value" assessment and make a decision accordingly, rather than expecting Frontier to magically solve their problem for them. Not trying to sound "harsh" here, but it's not Frontier's responsibility to determine each person's investment/value portfolio in a video game.
Feel free to agree to disagree.
Ok solid answer, that makes sense. I agree with you actually.
But therein lies the issue with ED. It's a very good game, noone has any doubt about that, just for something that is supposed to be for enjoyment, a large portion of the game, at least untill you've sussed out the RNGneering and builds you like, it almost feels like the game deliberatly makes life difficult.
Like the mining Viper called "Hate" i encountered in the res that i shot prematurely (yes i know), who then popped yeilding an instant 2mil on my head. LOL.
But no seriously they have taken things beyond the point of reasonable expectation with the grind, to a point i get why, it's not a finished game, and it can't be hugely simple to work with, but that doesnt make up for extending the grind the players have to cope with, just to buy more development time.
IMO, and thats all it is, they would be better off toning down the grind a little and just to be honest with the community. If for instance i was to read something from the Dev's saying how they'd toned down the grind a bit but it's a difficult system to work with and requires time to develop, and merely asked for our patience, as opposed to almost demanding that we have it, in the form of long winded and vapid game mechanics, I'd feel a lot more at ease that I wasn't just hearing empty promises about future gameplay.
(Also this is a post grind opinion, not that of someone still embroiled in it.)
The other predominant issue with it, is that it is off-putting to a large volume of players simply because they don't feel they can get anywhere, infact one of the people I most enjoyed playing with quit because of that. (Yes, we can all say that maybe they are'nt right for ED, but thats not strictly true, otherwise they wouldnt have invested in buying the game in the first place :/)
o7
Both make a lot of good points- I just think the "problem of grind" is simply much more complex than relegating it to Frontier must change X to achieve Y.
Out of 24 hour rep, but +vRep for now and when I get it, I'll award it accordingly!
(still think they need to increase this... LOL)
The game offers grind; this is a bad feature and it would be better otherwise.
Doing the grind is absolutely the responsibility of the player though.
I remember a news item where guards in a Chinese prison were forcing the inmates to play WoW for gold to sell when they should have been allowed to sleep. Those guys could complain about the grind. Unless someone is similarly forcing you to play Elite, though, what you do is on you.
Doing the grind is absolutely the responsibility of the player though.
I remember a news item where guards in a Chinese prison were forcing the inmates to play WoW for gold to sell when they should have been allowed to sleep. Those guys could complain about the grind. Unless someone is similarly forcing you to play Elite, though, what you do is on you.
Ultimately, the problem here is not that there is a grind. The problem is how uninteresting and bland most of the grind is.
I for one, would be strongly opposed to making the grind a lot quicker or easier, such as by simply increasing the drop rates of stuff. FDev didn't make ED to be a progression based game, and increasing drop rates and so on would simply encourage new players to follow that path.
However, I don't think anyone would object if FDev put some more effort into making the existing "grind" activities more varied and more engaging. The upcoming mining changes are a good example, this same level of attention needs to be given to more of the normal activities in the game.
I think it would also help if they make more changes like the recent change to HGE spawns, as this makes it possible to gather even some of the rarer materials while flying around doing other things. This would mean players wouldn't have to go out and grind mats every time they want to change out a single weapon on their ship and engineer it, as they would gather enough materials to cover occasional engineering during the course of their normal game-play. If you suddenly decided to buy a new ship and engineer everything on it from scratch, you might stll have to go out and grind a little though.
I for one, would be strongly opposed to making the grind a lot quicker or easier, such as by simply increasing the drop rates of stuff. FDev didn't make ED to be a progression based game, and increasing drop rates and so on would simply encourage new players to follow that path.
However, I don't think anyone would object if FDev put some more effort into making the existing "grind" activities more varied and more engaging. The upcoming mining changes are a good example, this same level of attention needs to be given to more of the normal activities in the game.
I think it would also help if they make more changes like the recent change to HGE spawns, as this makes it possible to gather even some of the rarer materials while flying around doing other things. This would mean players wouldn't have to go out and grind mats every time they want to change out a single weapon on their ship and engineer it, as they would gather enough materials to cover occasional engineering during the course of their normal game-play. If you suddenly decided to buy a new ship and engineer everything on it from scratch, you might stll have to go out and grind a little though.
Once more, I come to claim bounties, not to waste my time scanning wakes.
What do you mean by dropping in the others? I drop in all HGEs I find and HGEs aren't diverse, they only have dead ships which do nothing.
Also, their contents are heavily dependnat on the system in particular, for example, Imperial Shielding is only found in imperial systems. What if I happen to live in a federal group of systems?
HGE materials are very very odd to find casually.
The game intends to collect $$$.
So you do like the carpet?
I won't play the way you do just because my way of playing forces me to collect HGE materials or smell the farts of other ships.
If a game has a mechanic that is bad, it needs to be fixed, not to ask the player to not use it actively.
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It is.
Then it's an entirely self inflicted and counter productive limitation you've imposed on yourself. Your fault your problem.
By drop in the others I mean precisely that , drop into distress calls and weapon fire detected interdict pirates. Don't over focus on one thing limiting yourself and your opportunities to have fun and gain things.
Fly your spaceship over there. It's not a complicated issue.
They can be, but that's why there are alternatives. You can also gather all sorts of other stuff whilst looking for them.
I make money without trying, it happens as a side effect of everything else I do.
I prefer wooden floors and nice rugs.
You are a walking advert for not grinding, you don't like it and you moan continually. Your approach seems to be making you very unhappy. Maybe people who enjoy themselves are doing it better.
Bad is subjective, I just do what I enjoy.
Then why are you the one complaining if your approach is so superior ?.
TheMegaTurnip
Banned
Wait are you telling me people blame a system for screwing them over that has absolutely no care as to wether that person suffers or not? Weird. I love being abused by a system explicitley designed to give the richest individuals the most power me. (Retches over boots)
But no in all seriousness, i dont think its a matter of wanting to get stuff quickly, more a case of not wanting to be bored sh*tless whislt doing stuff. Most have no problem putting in a bit of work to access stuff, but the scaling behind those grinds is just . If it expected you do take on a plethora of missions that at least made an effort to not seem like randomly generated mush it would be very much more playable. the game at no point actively encourages you to do this, and so 90% of players, me included, fell into that trap of "oh this is getting boring as f*ck, I just want it done now" Then that kinda makes you grind it out.
Thats a big design flaw. The game actively encourages grind, and seldom little else. A little more personal touches to the missions so they don't feel so separate from the universe would go a long way to help the game feel engaging. As it stands people find it very difficult to stick at impersonal jobs that dont really feel like they have any relevance to them other than the eventual (and often very lackluster payouts/mats)
07
The game is frequently criticised for being a mile wide/inch deep. This is the problem that I think FD should be trying to overcome and improve on...
There’s always going to be a large number of gamers who are completionistic (word?) in the way they approach games like this, I definitely fall into this camp. I like to constantly have a goal, a new ship, a module, a new engineer...whatever.
The game definitely punished me a little because of this trait. I’m not the kind of player who’ll travel 1000ly to a guardian ruin and come home with half the materials I need for a new module, that would be a pointless trip. So I need to stick around and grind...
Grind will always be in the eyes of the beholder, it’s why threads like this one always result in pointless arguments.
There’s always going to be a large number of gamers who are completionistic (word?) in the way they approach games like this, I definitely fall into this camp. I like to constantly have a goal, a new ship, a module, a new engineer...whatever.
The game definitely punished me a little because of this trait. I’m not the kind of player who’ll travel 1000ly to a guardian ruin and come home with half the materials I need for a new module, that would be a pointless trip. So I need to stick around and grind...
Grind will always be in the eyes of the beholder, it’s why threads like this one always result in pointless arguments.
TheMegaTurnip
Banned
Yes, exactly. The game is especially designed to f*ck up people like you. Mainly for educational purposes.
Sorry what education purpose is that Mr Superiority complex?
Don't you dare talk to me about effort sunk.
I've spend years learning music, THAT requires effort for a real thing.
Not a bunch of pixels on a screen. I love the flight model. But that in NO way excuses the ridiculous amount of grind in the game, essentially there, to buy the Dev's more development time.
The reason there is discourse on the subject, FYI, is because they keep promising things. And delivering nothing.
EDIT: If you think ED would make it past quality control for ANY other large Dev company, you are sadly mistaken. (With the exception of Valve, who seem to have none.)
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