FD utter failure: engineering brought to an excess

[[VR] Muskoka]

Consider for a second, if you get destroyed at Beagle Point by another CMDR:-
1) Somehow you and some of your data can be transmitted (instantly) back to the bubble.
2) Information about the destruction clearly is transmitted (instantly) back to the bubble.

So are you suggesting it's more or less realistic that the Pilots Federation, who supposedly take a zero tolerance view point of illegal behaviour, would ignore the notification that CMDR A has destroyed CMDR B for the giggles and is acting like a psycho? ie: There's no reason that information wouldn't reach the bubble. There no reason the Pilots Federation would ignore the transmission form a "Report Crimes On" setting.


So to my mind a far more logic mechanic from a gameplay and game world point of view?

• Anarchy systems (or should I say Anarchy Governments) actively block security transmissions such as "Report Crimes". It part of their agenda.
• Systems without a Goverment/Population should not default to "Security: Anarchy" but instead "Security: None". So at Beagle Point, there is no security to help you, BUT, "Report Crimes" will still work.

So only in active Anarchy systems will true anarchy reign (as security transmissions are blocked). But in no Government/no Population systems crimes will get reported (as security transmissions take place).

So all of a sudden some more logical penalties can be applied to ganking, and indeed, withing a good sized around around the bubble the ATR can even rock up too!

Seems to make far more sense to me from a gameplay and game world POV...

I honestly didn't have a response to the question, I guess this works.

Only thing I have to say. If someone wants to explore in open, they should be able to do so without having to look over their shoulder every 2 minutes, and certainly not be forced to outfit a combat ready ship, that's unnecessary, and could be rectified through game design/mechanics. They're thousands of light years from the bubble, minding their own business, why else would they be out there.

Now, upon returning to the bubble, or they decide to explore in the bubble, for whatever "silly" reason, then the game mechanic should change, I get that. Who knows what your "really" up to, in the bubble. But, thousands of ly's out, there's not much question what your up to, and or what your choice of game play/style is. How that's managed, I don't posses the knowledge of the inner workings of the game to give an answer, but some common sense could probably go a long way, to a solution that accommodates everyone's style of play.

My thoughts anyways.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

You missed the edit.

Good eye though, well spotted, this was modified from a combat build.

The conversations here, helping each other with builds, is one of the best outcomes we can have from the DG2 shenanigans. Maybe the folks who know their stuff can set up a ‘Gank Proof R Us’ or something for players.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

C&P can extend in to anarchy and unpopulated systems, in a lore friendly way.

Basically, whatever happens in those systems is logged, but not acted upon.
So assault and murder are logged, and notoriety and bounties added. But nothing else. No security response.

You can kill all day and night within impunity.


Until you return to civilization.

As a player with significant Anarchist sympathies I absolutely decry this as a naked power grab by the powers that be. Leave Anarchies alone and stay in your lane.

 

[sollisb]

Sure, shoot me a pm when you've posted (or a rep or whatever, just so I know), otherwise I might miss it About which ship... I recognise, as do you, that the smaller the ship gets, the harder the task becomes. I won't deny it's very easy to prove my point with a Krait Phantom, not so much with an Asp, but I still think I could probably do it

https://coriolis.io/outfit/krait_ph...ACWHBx40AQAA.EweloBhBmSQUwIYHMA28QgIwVyKBQA==

Test Phantom

 

[Morbad]

Only thing I have to say. If someone wants to explore in open, they should be able to do so without having to look over their shoulder every 2 minutes

And they can. The odds of encountering anyone at all out in the middle of nowhere are quite slim.

However, flying to popular tourist destinations, being a hanger-on for a mass guided tour, or otherwise exposing one's self to high traffic areas, will always present a risk and rightly so.

could be rectified through game design/mechanics

Not without damaging combat as a whole or introducing some very arbitrary and heavy handed mechanisms.

Now, upon returning to the bubble, or they decide to explore in the bubble, for whatever "silly" reason, then the game mechanic should change

I don't agree. The mechanisms governing the game should have some logical consistency.

The only relevant (in the context of this discussion) difference between a system in the heart of the bubble and one 10k ly from anything is that the latter isn't going to be in anyone's jurisdiction, isn't going to be patrolled, and isn't going to have anyone to report 'crimes' to.

They're thousands of light years from the bubble, minding their own business, why else would they be out there.

But, thousands of ly's out, there's not much question what your up to, and or what your choice of game play/style is.

A bizarre presumption.

Exploration doesn't preclude other interests--plenty of other activities involve travelling great distances--and heavily laden combat vessels can knock out thousands of lightyears per hour.

Even exploration itself isn't a purely innocuous activity. Exploration data is one of the major tools of BGS manipulation and you cannot sell exploration data without influencing the BGS. If a CMDR is known to have certain allegiances, then they surly have enemies who would have very good reason to destroy them while they accumulate data and are likely to be at a disadvantage.

Everything my CMDR does is to advance his in-game interests. These interests are in opposition to the interests of many other CMDRs. If he's out exploring you can be he's looking to attain some direct or indirect strategic advantage over other CMDRs, even if this is secondary to just seeing what's out there.

Attacking my CMDR while he's out on an exploration foray is possibly the best time to do so, for numerous reasons:

- He's always ready for a fight, but he's not as well equipped when exploring as he's likely to be when expecting trouble.
- Even I tend to get complacent and reckless when the odds of encounters seem low.
- Loss of significant exploration data is one of the few ways one can inflict meaningful consequences or attrition in the current state of the game. Attacking one of my CMDRs combat vessels, even if by some miracle you bring it down before it can leave usually only costs a rebuy and a few minutes of inconvenience. Losing a significant amount of exploration data is a far more major setback, and thus a far more worthwhile attack.
- It will really annoy me, and likely cause me to waste a significant amount of my CMDR's time/resources pursuing revenge (even though the game's mechanisms are not conducive to this in any remotely direct way), which will reduce his impact on the BGS until I'm satisfied or cool off.

 

[Rat Catcher]

https://coriolis.io/outfit/krait_ph...ACWHBx40AQAA.EweloBhBmSQUwIYHMA28QgIwVyKBQA==

Test Phantom

I wouldn't leave the station with that

But I'm a dedicated coward too... Stick a 4A Guardian PP in and range goes down a little. But I think I see what you are doing there

 

[sollisb]

I wouldn't leave the station with that

But I'm a dedicated coward too... Stick a 4A Guardian PP in and range goes down a little. But I think I see what you are doing there

neither would I, but I've seen worse; No shields etc etc.

Typically I D-Rate the top level modules and then in order of importance, Scoop, G-FSD, AFMU, Shield, Buggy

My DW2 Orca is up to 63ly I think, and is best I could get in something like 2 hrs before start. For bubble hopping, I use either Python/DBX/AspX/Conda/Cutter depending on what I feel like flying. And bear in mind, I am totally PvE/PGs/Solo (rarely solo)

My over-riding point was a lot if not the majority of DW2 exploration ships are geared for Uber-best jump range. And most are going to be in PG so don't have to worry about Open play. Those who are in Open, can either shield for war or take their risks. And my question was; Why play in Open when everything you need is in PG/Solo with near total safety.

 

[Morbad]

https://coriolis.io/outfit/krait_ph...ACWHBx40AQAA.EweloBhBmSQUwIYHMA28QgIwVyKBQA==

Test Phantom

https://s.orbis.zone/1ymy

 

[Aashenfox]

https://coriolis.io/outfit/krait_ph...ACWHBx40AQAA.EweloBhBmSQUwIYHMA28QgIwVyKBQA==

Test Phantom

Thanks for making it a ship with some wiggle room. This runs cooler than your previous build as well. https://s.orbis.zone/1ync

You could swap one of the boosters for Thermal to boost thermal resistance, but that would be to protect from only one gank weapon that could get that shield down and that is the incendiary frag. There are no lasers that can do enough damage to 900mj when the user has 4 pips to sys. Not worrying about thermal resistance still gives you the same protection against the far more likely tools of the gank, the Efficient or Short Range PA and the Screening Shell frag. That ship is now gankproof.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

.....

The mining and 5000ly jump requirements, as well as various mat gathering, are non-consensual PvE as far as I'm concerned. That ruined my fun way more than a rebuy or two and some lost explo data would have.

I'd rather have been actually piloting - "practicing my skills". "Putting the effort in" unlocking just made me like the game less. I learned nothing in dozens of grind hours that I couldn't have in a 20 minute tutorial.

Everyone is tossing around builds and that's great but I think the lessons are pretty simple.

1. If you play in open without first learning basic knowledge of evasion, escape, sitational awareness, you will die if you are found by a murderhobo - regardless of build.

2. If you have this knowledge and want to survive in open, and have full unlocks, you can basically guarantee it by a sacrifice on the order of 2-3% jump range and a lot of mats.

3. If you have this knowledge and want to surive in open, and have only a few unlocks, you have a good chance by a sacrifice on the order of 5% jump range and a moderate of mats.

4. If you don't want to deal with any of this, you press solo/pg.

How is this thread so long? All these personal attacks and analogies to real world... it's just a game. The mechanics are what they are, use them or don't.

 

[sollisb]

https://s.orbis.zone/1ymy

I see what you've done mate, but why? You're losing 4ly per jump over lets say 100 jump is 400ly on along exploration trip is huge. DW2 is 65000 ly. You're losing out on some 60 odd jumps for no reason just to play in open, where you're still not guaranteed to evade the foe.

If I'm (and I speak for me alone) carrying 500m in expo data, I am just not going to risk being killed by some other player if I don't need to. All other risks, jumping into stars etc are knowns, I've planned for them. I may not be the best combat pilot, or even just pilot, so the risk of me being eaten by some fancy PvP pilot are to be frank almost guaranteed if I meet one.

I do get that any ship can be made a little better anti-pvp, but why should I bother, when I don't need to?

 

[Morbad]

And my question was; Why play in Open when everything you need is in PG/Solo with near total safety.

If my CMDR is going to be safe, I want that to be because I play him well, not because the game's mechanisms make it impossible for danger to find him.

Thanks for making it a ship with some wiggle room. This runs cooler than your previous build as well. https://s.orbis.zone/1ync

You could swap one of the boosters for Thermal to boost thermal resistance, but that would be to protect from only one gank weapon that could get that shield down and that is the incendiary frag. There are no lasers that can do enough damage to 900mj when the user has 4 pips to sys. Not worrying about thermal resistance still gives you the same protection against the far more likely tools of the gank, the Efficient or Short Range PA and the Screening Shell frag. That ship is now gankproof.

Something I'd actually use for exploration: https://s.orbis.zone/1yni

Sacrifices some more jump range for actually being able to do stuff on planets, greater redundancy, and enough hull to stand up to massed phasing sequence and still high-wake.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

The conversations here, helping each other with builds, is one of the best outcomes we can have from the DG2 shenanigans. Maybe the folks who know their stuff can set up a ‘Gank Proof R Us’ or something for players.

Not wanting to perturbate your circlejerking here but... You didnt post one single build. And the ones from Ash would take 200 hours to get for a new player.

For an exploration build to just not get one shoted in a videogame.

In which universe would I be able to sell this to a buddy I want to introduce to the game? Assuming he's not a simpleton willing to grind asteroid and USSs for one month of full time job, just to prove he's worthy of playing in an "open" mode where people can get their insurance credit back from support anyway?

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Not wanting to perturbate your circlejerking here but... You didnt post one single build. And the ones from Ash would take 200 hours to get for a new player.

For an exploration build to just not get one shoted in a videogame.

In which universe would I be able to sell this to a buddy I want to introduce to the game? Assuming he's not a simpleton willing to grind asteroid and USSs for one month of full time job, just to prove he's worthy of playing in an "open" mode where people can get their insurance credit back from support anyway?

It's not for everyone, that's for sure.
And that's perfectly fine.
But some people enjoy longer projects.


Some of the things you're complaining about are exactly what drew me to this game.

 

[Aashenfox]

If my CMDR is going to be safe, I want that to be because I play him well, not because the game's mechanisms make it impossible for danger to find him.



Something I'd actually use for exploration: https://s.orbis.zone/1yni

Sacrifices some more jump range for actually being able to do stuff on planets, greater redundancy, and enough hull to stand up to massed phasing sequence and still high-wake.

Yeh my build looks rather different too, this was purely for a challenge. I challenged Sollis that I could gankproof his most extreme build in an acceptable way (specifically, knock no more than 4ly off the range). I am done with 2 to spare and feeling quite smug given the extreme nature of the original build.

 

[sollisb]

Thanks for making it a ship with some wiggle room. This runs cooler than your previous build as well. https://s.orbis.zone/1ync

You could swap one of the boosters for Thermal to boost thermal resistance, but that would be to protect from only one gank weapon that could get that shield down and that is the incendiary frag. There are no lasers that can do enough damage to 900mj when the user has 4 pips to sys. Not worrying about thermal resistance still gives you the same protection against the far more likely tools of the gank, the Efficient or Short Range PA and the Screening Shell frag. That ship is now gankproof.

In the hands of a non-panicking pilot . Which makes a huge difference.

I used to play in open;

Interdiction 1; panicked and got say rebut before I knew what happened.
Interdiction 2; Me Pyhton, Foe Python, we measured up, started firing and both called it quits at 50% (He sent me message 'at least you stayed and fought')
Interdiction 3; Me Cutter, foe Sidewinder! Over land. I boosted into him and he dived and crashed on impact.
Interdiction 4; Me Anaconda, them (3) FDLs, Never knew what hit me. Had just both the condo and spent ages engineering. Threw toys out of the pram and swore never to go near Open again.

I've said many many times; I'm all for PvP against a beatable opponent. Pretty pointless if anything else. Sure, Submit and fly like the wind, unless there's a few of them who kill you in a blink of an eye.

I still say killing explorer ships for giggles is just a move. Where's the challenge? Do PvP players actually privately gloat about killing an unarmed vessel?

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Not wanting to perturbate your circlejerking here but... You didnt post one single build. And the ones from Ash would take 200 hours to get for a new player.

For an exploration build to just not get one shoted in a videogame.

In which universe would I be able to sell this to a buddy I want to introduce to the game? Assuming he's not a simpleton willing to grind asteroid and USSs for one month of full time job, just to prove he's worthy of playing in an "open" mode where people can get their insurance credit back from support anyway?

Questions of shaming sexual activities aside, I’m pretty sure I was one of the first to tweak someone’s build? Rat’s, I believe? That could’ve been another thread.

In any case, thanks for the comment.

 

[Morbad]

You're losing out on some 60 odd jumps for no reason just to play in open, where you're still not guaranteed to evade the foe.

I can do 60 jumps in 45 minutes. 45 minutes over the course of 60k ly is nothing.

My ability to escape a concerted 'gank' attempt (assuming I missed my opportunities to avoid the interdiction) by people that know what they are doing goes from a real long shot with a build like yours, to virtually certain with a build like the first one I posted, to needing a miracle to down what I'd actually try to explore with (the second build I posted).

I do get that any ship can be made a little better anti-pvp, but why should I bother, when I don't need to?

If such risks aren't the gameplay you want, you shouldn't. That's what the modes are for.

Personally, I just find exploration overly dull if I know no other CMDRs can shoot at me. Nothing else is ever going to stop me; as you say all the other risks are known variables.

 

[sollisb]

If my CMDR is going to be safe, I want that to be because I play him well, not because the game's mechanisms make it impossible for danger to find him.



Something I'd actually use for exploration: https://s.orbis.zone/1yni

Sacrifices some more jump range for actually being able to do stuff on planets, greater redundancy, and enough hull to stand up to massed phasing sequence and still high-wake.

Yep perfect in the Bubble.. Anything over 5k and I'm looking for max jump range. But that's kinda obv from my last build. But even in your ship... The pilot and circumstance all would dictate the longevity of said pilot

 

[sollisb]

I can do 60 jumps in 45 minutes. 45 minutes over the course of 60k ly is nothing.

My ability to escape a concerted 'gank' attempt (assuming I missed my opportunities to avoid the interdiction) by people that know what they are doing goes from a real long shot with a build like yours, to virtually certain with a build like the first one I posted, to needing a miracle to down what I'd actually try to explore with (the second build I posted).



If such risks aren't the gameplay you want, you shouldn't. That's what the modes are for.

Personally, I just find exploration overly dull if I know no other CMDRs can shoot at me. Nothing else is ever going to stop me; as you say all the other risks are known variables.

You're jumping a whole lot quicker than me. With new FSS it's taking me while minutes for each jump and that's not including mapping anything of interest.

Personally I find Exploration safer in PG.

We both know we're not going to convince each other differently I think, but I still respect you. And the Ashen lad . He's knows his stuff too.

EDIT: I really dislike this new mechanic whereby all I can see is one big screen.. I'd have puckers if I was in open..