Automation and Scripting - An investigation into further abuses of BGS and Powerplay

[[VR] Merkir]

valid point. For example, since I have the rift, i am using more VA macros.where is the limit then ?

You ask where is the limit?

I think the limit is crossed when the bot runs continuously with no player intervention required.

With a game like ED, I would have no issue automating a vast number of "chores" including travelling from one station to another. Why? Because I'm a stickler for verisimilitude. I find many things within ED absurd, like not being able to key in planet lat/long coords and have the ship automatically go there. This is the year 3304, for heaven's sake. Of course they would have this, and other autopilots. I'd almost feel it was my duty to code what I know would exist at that time.

So I have no issue with players using scripts, with the condition that the player has to "acknowledge" each station as they dock, since this also meets my feeling for verisimilitude, with stations requiring human pilots.

Just my opinion. Ymmv.

 

[Schlack]

30 day shadow-bans?

Jeebus.

 

[Crank Larson]

Jeebus.

Not Beelzebus?

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

You ask where is the limit?

I think the limit is crossed when the bot runs continuously with no player intervention required.

With a game like ED, I would have no issue automating a vast number of "chores" including travelling from one station to another. Why? Because I'm a stickler for verisimilitude. I find many things within ED absurd, like not being able to key in planet lat/long coords and have the ship automatically go there. This is the year 3304, for heaven's sake. Of course they would have this, and other autopilots. I'd almost feel it was my duty to code what I know would exist at that time.

So I have no issue with players using scripts, with the condition that the player has to "acknowledge" each station as they dock, since this also meets my feeling for verisimilitude, with stations requiring human pilots.

Just my opinion. Ymmv.

Its one thing to fight a war in private and solo against a group of people you cant see. But know they are there. At least those people only have enough time during the day.(which is another balancing problem and why BGS faction wars feel like a job. Some of the hard set times like elections could be by default shorter).

But when you fight against 24/7 bots, That are pinpoint targeting player systems. Thats a NONO.

The people defending their systems are already at a disadvantage because of the modes as it is(you can only react by farming back). Then people find out there were bots in play too.

Its a load of crap.

 

[Deareim]

Its one thing to fight a war in private and solo against a group of people you cant see. But know they are there. At least those people only have enough time during the day.(which is another balancing problem and why BGS faction wars feel like a job. Some of the hard set times like elections could be by default shorter).

But when you fight against 24/7 bots, That are pinpoint targeting player systems. Thats a NONO.

The people defending their systems are already at a disadvantage because of the modes as it is(you can only react by farming back). Then people find out there were bots in play too.

Its a load of crap.

Even me who is playing 50% in solo thibks that PP and BGS should be modified in only one mode - whatever it is-.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Bots are a symptom of a greater problem- the need for deeper gameplay.

But, there will always be those who want auto-progress.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Even me who is playing 50% in solo thibks that PP and BGS should be modified in only one mode - whatever it is-.

Yeah man, somethings gotta give.

While you are here, a lot of these people dont know. Our player groups fought against each other in Colonia. And it was an honor to do that and it brought a lot of depth to the game for me. Ive done some BGS work but not against another group to watch numbers rise and fall by different activities in the game. I thought it was really neat. And I really do appreciate our battle.

I talk a lot of smack, its what I do. Its all in fun. I say we won all the time. But we know there really was no winner with the BGS.

I just wish that PVP was a part of this so we could kill each other in the game with attack and defend scenarios. It was only then when I got out there I realized you were punished for the Open type of build with defenses and guns. When you can use solo and private with the more relaxed build and stack more missions/cargo/passengers or whatever. Then to see PVP only being a grief in elite because there is no context is really stupid imo. ( I dont blame you for using the modes, its the more efficient way.)

But I digress, Thank you for the BGS fights in Desy and Alberta.

It was fun.

 

[Roybe]

Even me who is playing 50% in solo thibks that PP and BGS should be modified in only one mode - whatever it is-.

Unfortunately, this will never be the case.

 

[Martin Schou]

uw;dw

Are we entirely sure these are even separate people? Remember there's that other group of combat-whiners that stage their own combat-logging and call it research too.

Sorry, but any player-generated "research" of this nature starts at zero credibility and goes down from there. I can't think of a single example where it's gone up.

Assume for a moment that we (I'm a founding member of the Alliance Office of Statistics) were behind it. We've been giving these reports to FDev for a while now, which means that if we were behind it, we'd be actively trying to make it harder for such bots to work the BGS and PowerPlay.

Now, can I rule out that one or more members of AOS are participating in this? No, of course not. The only ones who have even the tiniest of chances to find out who's behind it, are the people we've been sending these reports to.

And yes, at the very end of the day - it's ultimately meaningless. All that effort to change who is listed first on a station mission board, and for what? A change in the legal status of beer?

Clearly you don't find BGS or PowerPlay interesting - that doesn't mean you should just dismiss it out of hand. A lot of work and effort goes into it, especially when you're maintaining close to 1,700 systems (apart from maintaining out own faction, we also work very hard to have as many low triggers in Mahon space - hence close to 1,700 systems). "Losing" to players and groups who do a better job than we do is part of the game - it's like getting killed by a better player, and it's part of the fun. "Losing" to people who cheat by using bots, however, is not fun. If this concept is beyond your comprehension, that's an issue you need to resolve before commenting on group activities.

 

[BarryCarlyon]

Bots are a symptom of a greater problem- the need for deeper gameplay.

But, there will always be those who want auto-progress.

Perhaps, but the originally observed accounts have ALWAYS performed bot type operations at no point have the accounts been "handed back" to a human operator, based on observed traffic patterns.

So, it doesn't seem like this software is being used to auto progress CMDR accounts. Just to destroy/counter BGS and powerplay

 

[xDreadnoughtx]

Should this not be moved to bgs or powerplay?

I'm sure it's all very outrageous and sad, but PP has long been the forgotten ugly sister of ED.

Get used to playing it as it is, or stop playing.

There are other things in more need of dev resources.

Edit: what is the ultimatum btw? What if FD do nothing?

 

[CMDR Tom D]

Get used to playing it as it is, or stop playing.

There are other things in more need of dev resources.

I could say the same thing about combat logging and PvP Dreadnought.

 

[Red Anders]

I was waiting for the clever persons saying it is easy to do but i don’ t do it... or i can do it better. Such a wonderful attitude and a little bit hypocrit.

Because, at the end the day, how many people on this thread, if they had the opportunity to bot would not do it.
I think a poll would be interesting : You have to go to A-B-C-D for no game reasons, just time sink and someone comes and tells you : you can go from A to D directly, interested?
Facing the wall of grind, who would not ? It is human nature.

Fondamental problem here is not the bots but the ED game design..

I wouldn't do it in 10,000 years.

From the number of people who start the roughly bi-monthly threads calling for an autopilot though, I can accept that I may be in a minority.

 

[CMDR Tom D]

You might as well try to conflate keeping track of your household expenditure with fondling puffins.

That reminds me, I saw this last night on my phone and wanted to rep but couldn't

I was in fits of laughter.

 

[Martin Schou]

And the mirror image is just taking notes in a notebook from inside the privacy of his home on stuff in plain view in the public sphere. It prob inst illegal and nobody said that the OP was a criminal did they?

It's just a really WEIRD thing to spend ur time doing u see?

On the surface, yes, it seems weird, so let me elaborate on the why.

We like PowerPlay, and we like PowerPlay pledges to be well informed and doing the right thing for their power (regardless of which power that may be). So, when we suddenly saw Soholia (pretty much the worst possible system to prepare for Mahon) shoot up the prep list, we went looking for the people who were being naïve, to inform them why it'd be better for all parties, if they did something harmless like fortifying Namaka if they were just in it for merits, or why it'd be better to do other things if they were genuinely trying to help Mahon.

Then we noticed that some of them had names like "I Prep Soholia". Clearly this was someone trolling and trying to sabotage Mahon's PowerPlay ecosystem. And while that is a rather uncouth way of participating in PowerPlay, it's not against the rules. So instead of trying to reeducate them, some of our pilots decided to simply kill them in Soholia to stop them delivering their goods. And poof - they'd log the moment an interdiction was started (force quitting). Try it by the stations in Soholia, and they'd log the moment the first shot connected (force quitting). So far all they're really guilty of is force quitting the game to avoid PvP.

Then we had pilots noticing their odd flight behaviour. Gear down, throttle at half as it's moving out to about 10 km from the station etc (the stuff you saw in the video). That made people suspicious that these weren't being controlled by players, and then the ball really started rolling, because now we wanted to know what else they were up to. Using Soholia as the jumping off point, we decided to see which other commanders were flying routes that took them past Gateway and Soholia, and lo and behold - huge numbers of commanders flying those routes 24/7, with clockwork timing between arriving at stars and docking at stations, all of whom were taking significantly more time doing it than we consider normal for anyone flying an Anaconda or a Cutter.

So no - it's not like we sat down and decided to launch an investigation into each and every commander that visited Gateway. Odd things happened, we were curious, poked around a bit and found a cesspool of rot.

 

[ilo]

Potential bounty-hunting opportunity here, commander, first lets check if this ship is wanted.

I was waiting for the clever persons saying it is easy to do but i don’ t do it... or i can do it better. Such a wonderful attitude and a little bit hypocrit.

Because, at the end the day, how many people on this thread, if they had the opportunity to bot would not do it.
I think a poll would be interesting : You have to go to A-B-C-D for no game reasons, just time sink and someone comes and tells you : you can go from A to D directly, interested?
Facing the wall of grind, who would not ? It is human nature.

Fondamental problem here is not the bots but the ED game design..

FONDamental problem here are attitudes like this, that don't see how a game can be just funny.

 

[Martin Schou]

I can understand, creating an account, botting it to create wealth and then selling to some sucker... But to effect the BGS is just dumb AF...

To be honest, I have a suspicion as to who is behind it and the why. Suffice it to say that the person or people I suspect do not like PowerPlay and especially do not like the Alliance Office of Statistics. Anger can be a really effective motivator, even if all you're achieving is ruining other people's time. Now, this is just suspicion on my part, but it would certainly explain why bots are likely hitting other powers, and why the BGS actions are directed towards AOS.

People who have been part of PowerPlay for as long as I have, should have a pretty good idea of who I'm suspecting, and I'll leave it at that.

 

[Sucky]

• STOP SELLING THE GAME FOR £5!

You can't tell a company what to do, all gaming companies need to do these kind of sales. Steam did a big sale on Elite as well most recently with loads of other games, you going to tell them as well to stop doing sales on all games because of bots?
Just report the bots if it happens again and hopefully FD can work on something in the future to stop these kind of activities but from my experience in gaming, it will be hard, they always find a way unfortunately.

 

[DukeIronHand]

Unfortunately, this will never be the case.

Or perhaps fortunately.
Stand by for a shock but not everyone plays this game for “combat” (hehe), or to spend half their time Engineering, or flying a ship they don’t like, or PvP.
Why can’t you “Open only forever and ever” types just play your damn game and leave everyone else to theirs?

 

[CMDR Tom D]

You can't tell a company what to do

No one's telling anyone to do anything. It's a legitimate concern. FDev can respond how they want.