External View [A definitive discussion]

[egotronic]

...just look at my signature... and the original problem is, that Frontier decided to base ALL their advertisements, teaser and newsletters on external videos and screenshots! No wonder people buy Elite and wonder how to do that!

If they would have honestly said "No external views, First Person Only" at time of Beta release, I guess I would have passed... and no EVE or Star Citizen is no game for me! I'm a Sim addict, playing DCS World since years!
If Infogrames and Particle Systems still existed, and they would decide to make I-War 3... well, that would be it, but unfortunately we are stuck with Elite Dangeropus.

And it is not about changing YOUR game experience in any way, it is about living the credo of Elite: Dangerous - "Play your way" (http://www.elitedangerous.com/about/playyourway/)
So why is it a problem for anybody else, if I get an external camera in Solo mode???

And don't bring on that "it is development effort" crap... the external camera is in the game from the start, just because of the whining about "unfair" advantages it was not bound to a key and locked away, which actually is additional effort, just to please the kill-count junkies.

Well sorry but this game is called ELITE not FRONTIER. If anything, people will be buying this expecting it to be like...errrm...Elite? Elite did not have external views. And are you seriously suggesting Frontier was anywhere near as popular as Elite in that most people will be getting into this because they played the rather obscure Frontier rather than the mega-selling, groundbreaking Elite? Oh please...

As for you owning a joystick, well I did say 95 per cent, maybe you're the 5 per cent?

And sorry, but you don't make sense in saying Eve and Space Citizen are not a game for you because you're "sim addict" yet want external views. What's so "simming" about external view? That reaks more of casual to me. Any sim worth its salt is to be played in cockpit view and any simmer worth his salt who wants to be taken seriously will never admit to playing in external view.

I have no problem with an external view in SOLO mode and every post I made I made clear the only reason I don't want it is because of the MULTI-PLAYER aspect and the huge advantage it gives. Solo? They can put in pink flying space unicorns for all I care, as long as I don't have to witness it whilst playing and it appears only on your screen, fine by me.

And "Play Your Way" is overated, it's just like "Customer Is Always Right". They should both have an asterisk at the end of it. Yes play your way* (*as long as it's keeping in the spirit of things and the vast majority of fellow players like it too, i.e. nothing daft like giant planet eating hamsters.) Just like the customer is always right* (*unless you abuse a member of staff and then you get manhandled and probably arrested). Everything within reason, in other words.

And prove the external camera was already in game and locked away...show me a link saying so otherwise I will take what you say with a huge pinch of salt.

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That is the big problem, they are turning elite into an space dogfight game.
Good old days where it was exploring, trading and lasercook a few pesky pirates.

Now it " My pimped cobra can gank your phyton in 1.4375465 minutes !"

My expectation for Elite Dangerous does not really go up.

When do people learn that online games are different to offline games and that an "streamlining" does always happen, the pewpew becomes focus for the designers because that sells best...

Yes, let's just ignore the fact that a big part of the original Elite was about dogfighting and space combat. In fact without it you would never reach Elite level which was what the game was called: Elite. The only way to reach Elite level was to get kills, not trade or explore which rewarded you with a big fat nothing.

Oh but don't let facts get in the way of your argument. Did you even play the original?

 

[egotronic]

You are aware that EVE is an space rpg where stats and tactic, not twitchy fingers count?
That Elite always had external cam (who was always no help at all for fights, at least not for me)
Frontier even had an flyby cam...
Original elite had back and side views (back was either your mining or an laser to burn tailchasers)

So all thise stuff about "changing elite from what it was not intented to be:" is rather funny

Are you aware that you make no sense at all? First of all you say "..Elite always had external cam"...nope, it didn't. But then you go on to say something different contradicting your first brilliant conclusion with: "Original elite had back and side views". Make up your mind. And FYI back and side views is not external views.

So your argument is...? Complete nonsense?

 

[Vasea Azure]

Anyone want to wager 95 per cent of people who want external views do not even own a joystick.

I own HOTAS and Cessna like Eclipse Yoke from CH - plus almost only "games" I play are flightsims
People use 3p view in War Thunder (I dont find WT to be sim to be honest) - fact - but that is because they dont have a magical 3d radar to help them see the enemy behind...
And yes I play EVe online so what. I can go play it anytime I want.

 

[Vasea Azure]

And I really think there is no further sense of continuing this discussion since no one will ever convince anyone. This was done to death in the thread so many times, this just deja vu.
Fact is we wont get the 3p view (which is bad for the immersion in my personal opinion) because of the FD design choice. Wait and see how they deal with the camera drone thing...

 

[CMDR Dan Daren't]

... I am waiting until the day they intefere with classical music to spruce it up a bit and make it "more exciting" by adding some techno beat to Beethoven's 9th symphony...

The wait is over!

[video=youtube_share;_d8_7fzin5w]http://youtu.be/_d8_7fzin5w?t=30s[/video]

 

[Deyn]

Well sorry but this game is called ELITE not FRONTIER. If anything, people will be buying this expecting it to be like...errrm...Elite? Elite did not have external views. And are you seriously suggesting Frontier was anywhere near as popular as Elite in that most people will be getting into this because they played the rather obscure Frontier rather than the mega-selling, groundbreaking Elite? Oh please...

Nope, you are absolutely wrong! THIS game is called ELITE: DANGEROUS (Elite and Elite II: Frontier where the predecessors, the ones David Braben wanted to faithfully recreate with "modern" graphics and sounds... make the game he envisioned back then in the 80ies/90ies). You just need to read through the Kickstarter, for starters...

And yes, a lot of people here played BOTH Elite and Elite II, and even the original Elite at least had a rear view!

As for you owning a joystick, well I did say 95 per cent, maybe you're the 5 per cent?

About that 5%, where exactly does that number come from? Wild speculation on your side, maybe? My guess is the majority of people playing any flight/space sims use a joystick at least... any substanc ebehind your guessing?

And sorry, but you don't make sense in saying Eve and Space Citizen are not a game for you because you're "sim addict" yet want external views. What's so "simming" about external view? That reaks more of casual to me. Any sim worth its salt is to be played in cockpit view and any simmer worth his salt who wants to be taken seriously will never admit to playing in external view.

Well, good that at least YOU know me better than I do, but may be you have some deep insight into my soul from the few posts here, that I missed in the last 40 plus years...
Just to mention, one of my arguments always was, an external view can't be used for fighting, as it will be a DISadvatage, killing your situational awareness! Yet, EVERY modern flight sim since the 90ies, virtually any flight or space game have an external view!
...and I love switching to fly-by view when rushing through the clouds in the evening sun in DCS World, listen to the sound of a prop engine when pulling a nice turn, or just watch the livery and detail of the beautiful plane.
In dogfight / combat it neither makes sense, nor does it help you, so I stay in cockpit and use TrackIR to keep eyes on a bogey.

I have no problem with an external view in SOLO mode and every post I made I made clear the only reason I don't want it is because of the MULTI-PLAYER aspect and the huge advantage it gives. Solo? They can put in pink flying space unicorns for all I care, as long as I don't have to witness it whilst playing and it appears only on your screen, fine by me.

Cool, that is all most people ask for... may be someone can clarify that to Frontier?

And "Play Your Way" is overated, it's just like "Customer Is Always Right". They should both have an asterisk at the end of it. Yes play your way* (*as long as it's keeping in the spirit of things and the vast majority of fellow players like it too, i.e. nothing daft like giant planet eating hamsters.) Just like the customer is always right* (*unless you abuse a member of staff and then you get manhandled and probably arrested). Everything within reason, in other words.

Well, can you please discuss that with David Braben and tell him that they are wrong on their "promotianal website", as it only matters what YOU want? I guess it comes with the Nickname EGOtronic...

And prove the external camera was already in game and locked away...show me a link saying so otherwise I will take what you say with a huge pinch of salt.

Wait a second: Here for starters the promotional screenshots and videos produced in Elite: Dangerous with an external, fly-by or cinematic view should ring a bell?

Or do you think they developed a different game engine to produce these? I remember a post from Michael Brookes, where he said something along the lines of: "when we dropped external view, it had the positive effect of preventing to look behind your ships, and people liked that, as they feared it might unbalance the fight"...

So rather than simply limiting external cameras (simply by locking that option with hardpoints deployed for example) they just locked it away from us, yet every bit of promotional material has the one or the other external screenshot or video/fly-by sequence to get people hooked!

Again, just give us a simple external cam and fly-by in solo mode and lots (if not all) people will be happy and stop complaining! As it is now - Frontier Devs posting one cool video after another and players not even capapble of getting an unobstructed view at their paintjob - it's virtually asking for complaints.

 

[Rardain]

External cams / Battle cams

Any chance that we could get some external cameras available so we can gaze lovingly at our ships exteriors and watch them in nice fly-by's, or perhaps recordable battle cams to allow for analysis of your combat effectiveness and manoeuvres?

Ta

Cy

 

[Cody]

<grins> Have a little read - here.

 

[Aleksej]

Closing the thread. The link to the main thread regarding the external view is provided in the post above.

 

[Maiakaat]

They could introduce a mechanic where you get paid to go into the danger zone and record battles as a new job.

Also I like the idea of a zoom projected into the cockpit screens for exploration (a scan feature for planet surface data for example) and long range tactical planning when entering a battle, on to one or the other screen. This could be via telescopes which can be fitted as utility mount items.

I would violate none of the concerns, and add a new mechanism for recording battle scenes. The best recordings could be pushed to the community for a multi-media-immersion of the story lines, with a big credit for the recorder.

 

[jamesmay]

Whats the need for ship skins if you cant see your ship?

Why not implement a chase camera similar to whats in GTA, make it optional. Cockpit players can use their cockpits and chase'rs can use their chasecams. No harm done. No benefit in either.

 

[NeilF]

Whats the need for ship skins if you cant see your ship?

Why not implement a chase camera similar to whats in GTA, make it optional. Cockpit players can use their cockpits and chase'rs can use their chasecams. No harm done. No benefit in either.

I think people would simply prefer to be able to pan around their ship to:-
a) Get a view of it from any/all angles.
b) Include it in an interesting shot of a background also taking (a) into consideration. ie; Not just taking a picture of an interesting planet with the tail end of your ship.


But TBH with the complete lack of any feature to capture anything well at all, I'd simply vote for the much missing nose cam first of all. ie: Get a screenshot straight ahead without your cockpit/hud.

 

[Vasea Azure]

But TBH with the complete lack of any feature to capture anything well at all, I'd simply vote for the much missing nose cam first of all. ie: Get a screenshot straight ahead without your cockpit/hud.

Same here, same here +1

 

[PiLhEaD]

I think people would simply prefer to be able to pan around their ship...

Yep - what NeilF said!

+1

 

[nats]

And I really think there is no further sense of continuing this discussion since no one will ever convince anyone. This was done to death in the thread so many times, this just deja vu.
Fact is we wont get the 3p view (which is bad for the immersion in my personal opinion) because of the FD design choice. Wait and see how they deal with the camera drone thing...

+1 have some rep as well. Frontier have made a duff call there.

If some sad people want to try to gain a little bit of an advantage from using an external rear view permanently mapped to a separate monitor (the only way to gain an advantage in my eyes) I would say go ahead and let them - I couldn't give a hoot about that. Player combat is so rare in this game anyway who really cares? I play to enjoy myself, not to win by any means necessary. But I know there are sad people around who enjoy getting one up on someone else, even if it means cheating. Sad world we live in. But to make all the other people suffer and lose out because of that is not right.

Anyway I would love to see external views in this game especially a chase view, a fly-by view, a landing view, and landed rotatable view. These would add immensely to the game. I am very glad Frontier are planning to put something into the game, I would love to see this sooner rather than later though. For me one of the more pleasant things about playing flight sims was always looking around my plane whilst flying to the target or landing etc.

IMO this game is only HALF a game without that facility being present. Its the most frustrating thing for me when playing that I cant see my ship from the outside, especially when landing or landed.

 

[fodder606]

For me personally I thought I would have wanted a 3rd person view, even if I just used it when fitting through those tight space station doors, but the more I play the less I find myself wanting that view and on a couple of occasions I have found myself leaning forward at my desk and looking intently at the bottom of the monitor trying to lean over the instruments

 

[LarsBot]

External Views

Never mind the immersion thing (don't use it)or the combat advantage thing (it's not an advantage if everyone has it) can anyone reading this deny that this game was marketed with external views? If your going to say 'yes' please look at the Elite Dangerous Media page before you do.

30 of the 37 screenshots are EXTERNAL! 100% of the wall papers are external and 75-80% of the game footage is EXTERNAL! Even the videos on you tube.

I bought this game based on the external views, and I'm betting that most others did too and if not completely then it was a deciding factor.

So so from a product perspective why can't I get the product to perform as advertised? It's obviuos the software contains the ability to do this. I realize all the immersion this and combat that but above all that frontier needs to deliver their product as advertised that's the law.

 

[Mr Duffo]

so many threads about this... why cant use search

 

[Deyn]

+1 have some rep as well. Frontier have made a duff call there.

If some sad people want to try to gain a little bit of an advantage from using an external rear view permanently mapped to a separate monitor (the only way to gain an advantage in my eyes) I would say go ahead and let them - I couldn't give a hoot about that. Player combat is so rare in this game anyway who really cares? I play to enjoy myself, not to win by any means necessary. But I know there are sad people around who enjoy getting one up on someone else, even if it means cheating. Sad world we live in. But to make all the other people suffer and lose out because of that is not right.

Anyway I would love to see external views in this game especially a chase view, a fly-by view, a landing view, and landed rotatable view. These would add immensely to the game. I am very glad Frontier are planning to put something into the game, I would love to see this sooner rather than later though. For me one of the more pleasant things about playing flight sims was always looking around my plane whilst flying to the target or landing etc.

IMO this game is only HALF a game without that facility being present. Its the most frustrating thing for me when playing that I cant see my ship from the outside, especially when landing or landed.

...and even that could be completely negated, by just making external view available in solo mode, only! Yet Frontier seems afraid of too many players leaving Open play, which already seems to happen, judging by the comments of 'so few encounters of human players' in game I've read over the last days...

 

[LarsBot]

That's right Duffo, and none have a definitive answer to the situation above- it's all babble about immersion and unfairness- nothing about product advertising laws, if there is please point me to it.....