External View [A definitive discussion]

[Riedquat]

No thanks, you wouldn't drive your car from 6ft above and behind so the same applies to in-game... Let's keep it real people, it's not an arcade game...

No , but it is a game, where as driving your car is not.

however , I bet most driving games would have many different views available.

Having less of a view surely makes it more arcadey? , even in the original we had rear, left and right views at least.

 

[alchemy42]

No , but it is a game, where as driving your car is not.

however , I bet most driving games would have many different views available.

Having less of a view surely makes it more arcadey? , even in the original we had rear, left and right views at least.

3rd person view is arcadey. First person view is simulation.

 

[NeilF]

That was my reasoned point: it fits with planned development, doesn't require any 'handwavium' explanations, can't give any advantages in combat (you can't attack someone if your not at the controls) and doesn't require any extra effort on the part of the development team as once they start work on the first person expansion 'mark one eyeball' isn't going to be a view that's left out.

it does all of that while still allowing for an uninterrupted view of the universe and not risking any issues with advantage or immersion being broken.

So what issues in the suggested approach to offering this feature in the OP causes an advantage? And indeed not in fact a disadvantage (in combat)? ie: If an external view can indeed be offered easily with just 3-4 simple limitations, surely that's a good thing?

As for "immersion being broken" see "Common Arguments: It will break immersion," and for "handwavium" see "Common Arguments: It's not realistic" in OP.

3rd person view is arcadey. First person view is simulation.

See "Purpose" and "Common Arguments: It will break immersion" in OP - Click here!

 

[NeilF]

It depends on the external camera, really. If it is not a rotating camera--if it just allows us to see straight ahead without he cockpit in the way--I see no problem in allowing its use during combat. But if the camera has the ability to take "selfies" and provides a 3rd person view, it might be a considerable advantage because your view wouldn't be as limited.

Using the camera to quickly look around, and behind obviously, is clearly an advantage. But if we put this into context:-
1) Someone with Oculus Rift can look around and behind them far more easily than a regular player.
2) To look behind you with an Oculus Rift will probably take a second or so - Pitch up 30 degrees and look behind. Where as with the proposed external view, it will take ten or so seconds to achieve the same, most of the time which your a sitting duck!

ie: It's a disadvantage to use external view in a combat situation - Which is the desired goal.

 

[Tinman]

Edit: Oops! Wrong thread...

 

[Tinman]

The OP has missed to list the MAIN reason why external view isn't going to be implemented in the game.

Design choice by FD!

Sandro Sammarco wrote this:

Just to clarify: the first person only view was not implemented because of any multiplayer consideration - it was a design choice that we feel supports the "you are in the world" experience we're aiming for. Obviously, I'm not saying you have to agree that it was a good choice though!

Mike Evans wrote this:

Elite will have cockpits just like this one and you're not going to be able to toggle them off either...
We're both saying that you play the game through the eyes of the pilot which means you do see the inside of your ship and you do look around and have camera motion that matches that of a head lolling about within the cockpit as you fly around.

When you want to walk around your ship you just stand up and then your walking around in first person, seamlessly. This creates an incredible level of immersion and will make even more sense if and when we get Oculus Rift or TrackIR support. Hell even just using the mouse to look around within your cockpit would be incredibly useful when flying your ship.

Michael Brookes wrote this:

There's no third person view for flying the ship, the game is about you in your cockpit and based around that central premise. There may be some external cameras views in certain situations, but the game is played as a commander in the cockpit.

Michael

There are more quotes, but I can't find them right now.

Finally I'll repeat something I wrote a couple of days ago:

...
This issue has to to with how FD want you to experience the game. It is not something that really has that much to do with game-mechanics as such. It's a esthetic choice they have made.

Having the option to listen to a song you like but with other chords playing with the melody isn't impossible. But it wouldn't be what the musician intended for you to hear.

Having the option to see a James Cameron movie with a yellow tint instead of his trademark blue one isn't impossible, but it wouldn't be what he intended for you to see.

Taking an abstract painting and applying a color correction to it thus exchanging the colors isn't impossible, but it wouldn't be what the painter intended.

Taking a game like Mirror's Edge and removing the body (or making it 3rd person for that matter) isn't impossible, but it would change the experience that the devs wanted you to have.

The more options you have for whatever it is you are experiencing the more diluted the experience becomes. That doesn't mean ALL options should be removed of course, but options that touches on core elements of how they want the game experience to be should be clear and consistent IMO.

Since FD has on several occasions said that this game is meant to be experienced "from the eyes of the commander" this seems to be such a design choice. Therefore I feel they should stick to that as much as possible since that is going to make the game more focused and give it a clearer identity.

 

[NeilF]

People want what they want. I myself don't get it. I'm happy in the cockpit with my headless avatar.

Headless and legless

That said, I bet if there was an external view, you'd love getting some screen shots of your ship (complete with its decals - how else you ever going to see them) passing a huge fleet of other ships with Earth in the background?

And you're saying you wouldn't want to watch and pan around the view looking back on your ship as it leaves a space station?

 

[Cody]

Edit: Oops! Wrong thread...

<grins> An easy mistake, with so many such threads around.

 

[NeilF]

The OP has missed to list the MAIN reason why external view isn't going to be implemented in the game.

Design choice by FD!

If it's not in there, then it's not in there...

But again, if we think constructively (rather than negatively), and we can see a simple way it can be offered with no impact to game play, what what is the problem?

Are you arguing against external view because you can see real issues with it? Or just because you want to?


As for your quotes, thanks! They seem to suggest there is still the potential. Thanks...

There's no third person view for flying the ship, the game is about you in your cockpit and based around that central premise. There may be some external cameras views in certain situations, but the game is played as a commander in the cockpit.

Michael

Now, there's no question FD have the only say in this that matters. But if we can be constructive about the matter lets be. So if you can bring a considered issue/problem to the proposal in the OP please do. But just batting around "views" really won't help - If you simply don't want to participate, then just don't

 

[Iskariot]

I really don't care either way. My approach is I'll take whatever Frontier deliver.

Hear, hear....

I've given up on this topic also. I decided to have no opinion about this anymore.

By now FD will know about the different views and will take from it what it will.

I will just assume that Braben knows best.

 

[NeoRacer]

Who tagged this as definitive?! lol Wait till more players come in, they will be requesting it too. Either they come out with a way to record a game session and replay it with views if you want, or someone will come out with a hack Cant wait

 

[NeilF]

Who tagged this as definitive?! lol Wait till more players come in, they will be requesting it too. Either they come out with a way to record a game session and replay it with views if you want, or someone will come out with a hack Cant wait

It's my attempt to create a definitive post Seemed more constructive than the same argument and answers being repeated over and over in thread after thread.

I hadn't even considered a hack to give an external view, but that's a world of pain unto itself I'd imagine. eg: Aim bots etc...

 

[Rog]

Firstly, NO-ONE is asking for an arcade mode like these:

Rather, we want to enjoy the lovely visuals:

Most of the time, we will NOT be in combat, but in deep space, exploring the galaxy, trading, whatever. Travel will take significant time - no 'Stardreamer' remember.

For many, the PvP multiplayer combat stuff is starting to be a real pain - it's obliterating everything else about Elite.

ELITE is not supposed to be EVE or BF4 in space as far as I'm aware.

Immersion/realism...

The F-35 fighter NOW has 360 degree integrated cameras. The pilot can 'look' through the skin and floor of his cockpit. LINK.

Car manufacturers (Renault) NOW are considering fitting aerial camera drones into vehicles. LINK.

The bottom line for the naysayers:
NO-ONE is trying to get a God's-eye view of the battlefield to gain 'advantage' over you. For a start, if every conflict in E: D is going to be hide and seek behind asteroids, I want a refund. People aren't going to be hiding around corners and lobbing grenades at you.

Secondly, there have been a raft of handicaps/nerfs proposed to put the 'no' camp at ease which would totally make a camera view suicidal for anything other than enjoying the view.

It would be helpful if the 'no' camp (perfectly entitled to their opinion) could specifically, clearly state what they are objecting to.

 

[alchemy42]

Headless and legless

That said, I bet if there was an external view, you'd love getting some screen shots of your ship (complete with its decals - how else you ever going to see them) passing a huge fleet of other ships with Earth in the background?

And you're saying you wouldn't want to watch and pan around the view looking back on your ship as it leaves a space station?

I'm saying it wouldn't be a deal breaker if it couldn't.

Obviously I would probably enjoy the eye candy, but of all the assorted flight sims I've played, I've found playing with external views entertaining for a short while and then I go back to the main view.

What if you had a big holo-display that generated from the center of your console to create the equivalent to a big screen tv. Seeing an external view, but still in the context of your cockpit is what I would be after.

I imagine you would need something like that to have a decent representation of the galactic map.

 

[Tinman]

If it's not in there, then it's not in there...

But again, if we think constructively (rather than negatively), and we can see a simple way it can be offered with no impact to game play, what what is the problem?

Are you arguing against external view because you can see real issues with it? Or just because you want to?

Did you read my post? It's a question about how the game is experienced, it has nothing to do with gameplay or technical issues. Imagine Mirror's Edge (or Half Life, Far Cry etc...) with all the features and gameplay as it is right now EXCEPT in third person view. Would that still be the same game/experience?

As for your quotes, thanks! They seem to suggest there is still the potential. Thanks...

What Michael was referring to in that quote was this:

There's no external view, it's cockpit view only. We may add camera drones or similar for the final game, but it won't be a third person view that you can fly in.

Michael

In other words...there might be a remote controlled drone you can use, but you are still going to control it by sitting in the cockpit and watching a screen while doing it.

 

[noodle]

In other words...there might be a remote controlled drone you can use, but you are still going to control it by sitting in the cockpit and watching a screen while doing it.

Personally, I have no problem with that. So long as it can take full-screen video that can be viewed outside the game, then it's win/win and we're all good.

 

[PhanttoM]

<SNIP>
IMO there is no place for such a mode in ED while playing. The original dev idea of making a camera drone available seems to be the way to go. it is a matter of tweaking the drone ability in order to make it irrelevant in combat (zero shields and radar obvious? one time use only? only post processing images - e.g. accessible with a time lag or only at the dock?).

My vote would go for zero shields and easy to shoot/destroy.

Basically the camera drone would be a deployable subsystem that floats/follows outside of the shields, and can be shot down in one hit.
And obviously cost credits to replace.

 

[NeilF]

Firstly, NO-ONE is asking for an arcade mode like these:

Spoiler

Rather, we want to enjoy the lovely visuals:

Most of the time, we will NOT be in combat, but in deep space, exploring the galaxy, trading, whatever. Travel will take significant time - no 'Stardreamer' remember.

For many, the PvP multiplayer combat stuff is starting to be a real pain - it's obliterating everything else about Elite.

ELITE is not supposed to be EVE or BF4 in space as far as I'm aware.

Immersion/realism...

The F-35 fighter NOW has 360 degree integrated cameras. The pilot can 'look' through the skin and floor of his cockpit. LINK.

Car manufacturers (Renault) NOW are considering fitting aerial camera drones into vehicles. LINK.

The bottom line for the naysayers:
NO-ONE is trying to get a God's-eye view of the battlefield to gain 'advantage' over you. For a start, if every conflict in E: D is going to be hide and seek behind asteroids, I want a refund. People aren't going to be hiding around corners and lobbing grenades at you.

Secondly, there have been a raft of handicaps/nerfs proposed to put the 'no' camp at ease which would totally make a camera view suicidal for anything other than enjoying the view.

It would be helpful if the 'no' camp (perfectly entitled to their opinion) could specifically, clearly state what they are objecting to.

OP updated to give a couple of screenshots to set the scene...

 

[J.T.Kirk]

Firstly, NO-ONE is asking for an arcade mode like these:

Rather, we want to enjoy the lovely visuals:

Most of the time, we will NOT be in combat, but in deep space, exploring the galaxy, trading, whatever. Travel will take significant time - no 'Stardreamer' remember.

Immersion/realism...

The F-35 fighter NOW has 360 degree integrated cameras. The pilot can 'look' through the skin and floor of his cockpit. LINK.

Fully agree with this. I don't want a God's-eye view of the battlefield, but having the ability to look at something beautiful and take pictures of it without the cockpit in the way hurts no one and is very easy to introduce into gameplay--and very realistic.

 

[Globusdiablo]

Tricky poll

I would like to have external view as an option all the time.