Grinding isn't the player's fault

[Agony_Aunt]

As it has me, but I don't see it as anywhere near a functional game.

Aspects like you've mentioned indeed have been improved, but i do disagree on a few points.

The first beign the material/engineer grind. Well some of it at least, The new system is far better, but they need to kill RNG in engineering entirely (in the rolls) as the expense of rare materials is horrendous and you can't always guarantee accessing them isnt going ot take until the next server tick. (Though the increase to mat storage was a SOLID addition) That before mentioning the massive amount of stupid prerequisites you have to fufil to even get access to them. 500 tons of ore is a great example of this. Essentially the engineers force players to partake in activities they have no intrest in, just so they can improve thier ship to better apply it to thier chosen careers.
The second, well, kinda still part of the first, is the traders themselves. Simply put they are only useful to trade down, not up. The rates are simply too steep. 6-1 is not a good rate scalling up no matter how you look at it.

The Superpower ranks just to get access to a ship would be all well and good, but the impersonal nature of the rank grind and mission structure is what promotes the idea of it being a grind in this sense, not like reliance on RNG like Mat farming, but a grind nonetheless. If they were to feel a little more like a benificial addition, IE: Different bonus' for achieving different military ranks, prehaps in a simlar way to powerplay. But yeah I do agree with you with most of that.

Credits are a funny one.. If you have the experience and ingame knowhow, yes, you can make millions in a short timeframe, well some can, I can't, Not a credit grinder myself. Otherwise you do kinda have to rely on the gold rushes or just aimlessly wandering around hoping ot find lucrative opportunies. Or alternatively, you have to grind cash, to buy the decent ships, to grind more cash. Its a cycle that many get locked into, then, it becomes a grind, if for no ther reason than the fact that the lucrative mission typicaly arent very entertaining.

But where you say rebuys are mostly meaningless, I disagree. It might be the case for those who've used several gold rushes over the years, but not everyone has the willpower to sit at places like quice for weeks on end.
In fact on the rebuy subject, i don't think it would harm the game overly if powerplay was to provide rebuy discounts.. However now we get to powerplay..

Oh powerplay..

Such a good concept, but simply because of that which you've mentioned (rank degredation) it is largely pointless unless its for roleplay or PvP reasons. That needs to be axed. Rank degredation is yet another mechanic designed to dangle a carrot in front of the player to keep them at the grind (initially the modules, later the potential 50mil per week.), and thenthat in turn keeps player counts high and makes FDev look good. Which is a weak way of going about it IMO.

If they were to make things a little more engaging and just a little bit more realistically accesible then they would find thier player count would rise because more people would be finding enjoyment in the game. This last point is something they might be finally understanding (I haven't made up my mind yet. Beyonds total content changes are the decider), which if so, is great, but it really shouldnt have taken so long to realise fun is what raises your player count, not locking stuff behind activities that demand an unrealistic amount of time for the average person.

Fair enough.

But i've barely used gold rushes. Checked out one or two, then moved on after a couple of runs. I don't like grind, i don't like using exploits. I had plenty of credits left over (about 1 billion so plenty for rebuys anyway) when i gave up on big ships for good and went to flying all Cobras.

If you want to avoid the grind in terms of credits, its easy, don't fly big ships and you never have to worry about credits ever again

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

It's the only bit I am having trouble agreeing with

Regardless of how many credits you have, when you're just 'playing' ED, you're still investing time in the only meaningful progressive indicator: Credits. It's still very possible for someone to lose many hours of game time repaying the insurance for a Cutter loss, including the all important to consider cargo.

PS:Also whilst on loss, losing an explorations ship is also very costly game-time wise. I still don't know why your data isn't backed up whilst in space. It's got to be cheaper hardware than our built in holo me from the other side of the galaxy in realtime, no lag, with direct control of ship systems.. That has got to be (by definition) very expensive hardware running that show

I have 2 billion CR.
I've had 2 billion CR since February - and I play at least 5 days/week.
Last week I flew around the Bubble running missions and lost ~10 million - gotta love donation missions.
Credits is clearly NOT the only meaningful progress indicator.

Now, if you were to ask me how many 'real world' stars I've visited since February then you'd see where MY progress indicator is.

(~800, since you ask)

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Fair enough.

But i've barely used gold rushes. Checked out one or two, then moved on after a couple of runs. I don't like grind, i don't like using exploits. I had plenty of credits left over (about 1 billion so plenty for rebuys anyway) when i gave up on big ships for good and went to flying all Cobras.

If you want to avoid the grind in terms of credits, its easy, don't fly big ships and you never have to worry about credits ever again

Well then fair enough, can't say i've visited them all to often myself. HA, we're more similar than you might think lol.

I have owned a big ship for all of about a week, never lost them, (had vette/conda), sold both because fighting in PvP with those is not only expensive, it boring. Not to metion merely an excersize on who has more free time and the biggest wallet.

Stick to me Vipers mostly and a Challenger, so rebuys don't mean a whole lot to me either, but for those who want to fly big ships and don't have the time to sit there and earn millions or don't want to sit doing the same thing for hours should'nt have to rely on them to be able to get to those ships, at the end of the day it's about playability. Not that accesing these ships should be easy, far from it, just not so quite out of bounds as the normal persons avalible playtime if you get me.

 

[Vorxian]

That’s where I disagree. I believe that if you don’t find something fun, you shouldn’t do it.

I agree you shouldn't do it.... but when it's the only thing that grants you access to xyz, it's the games fault you have to do it. There should be many paths to the destination... not just one dodgy rocky dirt track.

ED has infinite scope. Surely there's an alternative to rep grind to get a Corvette? What about bribing some official? or doing some admiral in the fleet some personal missions to unlock the ship... grinding horse snot 34,000 times isn't as fun as one hoped.

As they say:

not just

and lots and lots and lots more

and more

and more

just drives players:

We need:

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

That’s where I disagree. I believe that if you don’t find something fun, you shouldn’t do it, nor do I think that every game should appeal to everyone. We have different games for a reason, and if every game tried to appeal to everyone, what we’d end up with a morass of banal skinner boxes, and no developer would ever try to do something different.

I agree with you mate, but to progress in any meaningful way, this game absolutley reinforces the need to grind, Im all for working for stuff in game, but when 99% of that money earning potential or rank unlocks or even engineer prerequisites involve repeatedly doing the same thing end over end it's badly thought out.

It's not like they can't sort it out, all the core basis is there, they just have to make missions a little less repetative and make them feel a bit more personal, even if thats generated by RNG, provided there is enough variation in vocal lines, or specific requests during mission, or even strage side questy things that pop up during them, but via some other measn than an impersonal E-mail from a rando faction you've literally never worked for.

If they give the existing systems just a bit more flavour and variety of outcomes, then it would be a very much mroe enjoyable experience.

I agree you shouldn't do it.... but when it's the only thing that grants you access to xyz, it's the games fault you have to do it. There should be many paths to the destination... not just one dodgy rocky dirt track.

ED has infinite scope. Surely there's an alternative to rep grind to get a Corvette? What about bribing some official? or doing some admiral in the fleet some personal missions to unlock the ship... grinding horse snot 34,000 times isn't as fun as one hoped.

As they say:



not just



and lots and lots and lots more



and more



and more



just drives players:



We need:

So much rep for the visual metaphors.

Bleddy good job XD.

o7o7o7o7o7

EDIT: I should have read before commenting. Now i've just made the exact same point. .

 

[Vorxian]

I have 2 billion CR.
I've had 2 billion CR since February - and I play at least 5 days/week.
Last week I flew around the Bubble running missions and lost ~10 million - gotta love donation missions.
Credits is clearly NOT the only meaningful progress indicator.

Now, if you were to ask me how many 'real world' stars I've visited since February then you'd see where MY progress indicator is.

(~800, since you ask)

me to! I'm out way way way in the black at the moment, floating around Sag A, with a healthy account balance to, but, with all the wealth, i'm STILL flying around in my ASPX (mush have cost me like 30m something in total?). Exploring and hitting print screen is my game atm. For me the bubble is just too full of sprouts.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

Like I said you limit yourself, that's the min-maxers way.

Like I said, min maxing is part of the game. I should not be "limiting" myself just because I enjoy doing such.

That's how RNG works.

So you've got no citation, try harder.

It's a spaceship flying game, sometimes you have to fly your spaceship to other places.

Could you set the color to auto?

Yes I do, those places may not be Imperial or Federal though.

Then trade for them, or get them as mission rewards [...]

Yeah, I never got a significant amount of them as mission rewards, I'll trade some other materials for them but none of that makes HGE hunting any less boring.

Traders and mission rewards, if you gather random pirate mats you'll soon find you have maxed out storage on a lot of things you don't need. Yesterday I blew 36-1 phase alloys and compound shielding on some heat vanes. Sounds like a bad trade but I have no use for them have been ignoring them whilst scooping and kept 40 or so in reserve so I'm covered for any engineering needs and will soon top them up again.

Sliding the boring mechanic under the carpet I see.

You are the one who said the game intends us to collect money.

Don't put words in my mouth, read closely:

"The game intends to collect $$$."

No I clearly said I prefer wooden floors and rugs, this means in direct answer to your random and offtopic floor covering preference question I'm not that into carpet.

Sort of the opposite of a yes as you've incorrectly assumed.

Rug is a synonym of carpet.

Rubbish, you've made all that up.

Well, you do love to tell us how uninterested you are about "min-maxing".

If you enjoy it why all the moaning ?.

The quote to which you replied answers that. I enjoy min-maxing, I do not enjoy HGE hunting.

I enjoy flying about in SC dropping into random signals, HGE's are just part of that and can be ambushes which are loads of fun.

An ambush? Last time I was in the bubble, I was teasing the police to figure out how many I could kill. HGEs don't spawn enemy ships BTW.

It doesn't make the time shorter, it makes the game boring and mat gathering far less productive (that's longer) as you skip all the random stuff you could be collecting as well by concentrating on just the one thing.

Well, tell that to this guy. Also, the time it takes to grind for materials below tier 4 is rather small aside from some exceptions like Arsenic so ignoring them while focusing on G5s is not an issue.

You already replied to that post.

So I can't make two replies or what?

Anyway the abbreviation of the post is you take a very boring limited approach to video games and I look at it and think no wonder he's not having fun, poor little fella.

As a matter of fact, I have enjoyed my time in ED, that doesn't mean I think all mechanics in ED are well made.

 

[V'larr]

You're right!
If FDev had been paying attention they would have:

Reduced the number of mats needed for engineering recipes
Removed the need for commodities
Simplified the process of engineering to reduce RNG
Increased the number of mats we can carry
Implemented a mechanism for converting mats into different grades

Clearly they're paying no attention at all.

None of which addressed the most glaring issues about Engineers, which is that it takes any semblance of balance and chucks it out the window.

Everybody having equal access to be OP and use silly gimmicks is NOT balance.

__

<snip>
I don’t particularly enjoy games like Overwatch, despite liking skill based games in general.

Okay, this triggers me....

Overwatch is not a skill-based game.

Overwatch is an elaborately painted-up version of rock paper scissors.

That's all that Blizzard knows how to do with their PvP games, they don't know nor care about balance for jack squat. Look at Hearthstone, look at Heroes of the Storm, they're the exact same way - what you take into the match matters 100x more than how you actually play the match, because everything is so wildly powerful. Blizzard games have anything BUT an even playing field and it shows.

It's also why I've painfully learned the hard way to never again install one of their PvP games.

ED is often called “a mile wide, an inch deep,” and I think a part of that is due to a rather vocal group of players who prefer skinner box games. The game’s Economic Simulation layer was nerfed to oblivion, due to players players not willing to engage their brains, while demanding massive profits. Supercruise received a similar dumbing down, to the point where those of us who flew optimally found our travel times increased, so that the Netflix players could get to their destination faster. I’m surprised the BGS hasn’t suffered the same fate.

I mean, my 'thread to save time' is still floating around in my signature for a reason there with Supercruise....

 

[trigun539]

Only to those who insist on flying like the proverbial elderly grandmother. Flying fast, and pushing your skills and ship to their limits, I find to be quite fun. As the old saying goes, “If you’re not willing to damage your ship, you’re not really in a hurry.

Let's see a fast ship flying then, send me a link to Youtube showing somebody flying "fast". Maybe I'm just not doing it right... From all the Youtube videos that I could find from experienced players I did not see anything other than the normal flying in super cruise.

 

[Stigbob]

Like I said, min maxing is part of the game. I should not be "limiting" myself just because I enjoy doing such.



So you've got no citation, try harder.



Could you set the color to auto?

Yes I do, those places may not be Imperial or Federal though.



Yeah, I never got a significant amount of them as mission rewards, I'll trade some other materials for them but none of that makes HGE hunting any less boring.



Sliding the boring mechanic under the carpet I see.



Don't put words in my mouth, read closely:

"The game intends to collect $$$."



Rug is a synonym of carpet.



Well, you do love to tell us how uninterested you are about "min-maxing".



The quote to which you replied answers that. I enjoy min-maxing, I do not enjoy HGE hunting.



An ambush? Last time I was in the bubble, I was teasing the police to figure out how many I could kill. HGEs don't spawn enemy ships BTW.



Well, tell that to this guy. Also, the time it takes to grind for materials below tier 4 is rather small aside from some exceptions like Arsenic so ignoring them while focusing on G5s is not an issue.



So I can't make two replies or what?



As a matter of fact, I have enjoyed my time in ED, that doesn't mean I think all mechanics in ED are well made.

<holding post>

Sort out your quotes and font color and I'll have a bash at answering you.

<holding post>

 

[Shinji Ikari]

<holding post>

Sort out your quotes and font color and I'll have a bash at answering you.

<holding post>

You go first.

 

[Stigbob]

You go first.

Lol, I don't grind.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Lol, I don't grind.

So what?

 

[Stigbob]

So what?

That's sort of the whole point.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

That's sort of the whole point.

Not really, I've ground many features and find them amusing. HGEs in SC and wake scanning are boring even if I do them briefly.

 

[Stigbob]

Not really, I've grinded many features and find them amusing. HGEs in SC and wake scanning are boring even if I do them briefly.

Ground not grinded.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Ground not grinded.

Will you actually discuss now instead of being my personal grammar checker?

 

[Darkfyre99]

Let's see a fast ship flying then, send me a link to Youtube showing somebody flying "fast". Maybe I'm just not doing it right... From all the Youtube videos that I could find from experienced players I did not see anything other than the normal flying in super cruise.

For starters, you can go here for what a good braking maneuver looks like. It's at 400 seconds, if the link doesn't work. Keep in mind that as far as the racing circuit is concerned, I'm not particularly very good.

You can also go here for a race featuring Lakon Type - Xs where the name of the game is speed trading. Commnader Furrycat, in particular, managed to complete the four stop trade route in 14 minutes, 46 seconds, in a Type 9. That's an average three minutes and 42 seconds per station, in the worst maneuverable ship in the game. There's plenty of videos posted in the thread, as well as advice and hints on how to travel faster.

And, of course, there's this video, where the four most common Supercruise approach techniques are shown side by side:

[video=youtube;gy4zca1yjKw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy4zca1yjKw[/video]

If you're truly taking seven minutes to go from station to station on a short Supercruise trip, you've got plenty of space to improve your technique.

 

[trigun539]

For starters, you can go here for what a good braking maneuver looks like. It's at 400 seconds, if the link doesn't work. Keep in mind that as far as the racing circuit is concerned, I'm not particularly very good.

You can also go here for a race featuring Lakon Type - Xs where the name of the game is speed trading. Commnader Furrycat, in particular, managed to complete the four stop trade route in 14 minutes, 46 seconds, in a Type 9. That's an average three minutes and 42 seconds per station, in the worst maneuverable ship in the game. There's plenty of videos posted in the thread, as well as advice and hints on how to travel faster.

And, of course, there's this video, where the four most common Supercruise approach techniques are shown side by side:



If you're truly taking seven minutes to go from station to station on a short Supercruise trip, you've got plenty of space to improve your technique.

That does look a bit faster, will need to try it out and see how much impact it has on the game while trading and running missions. Wonder how much impact it has on longer super cruise trips if not much then you have to pray to RNG to give you missions to stations close to stars. It does look like your doing something with your ship while in super cruise so it could make the game a bit more interesting.

If this does make a big difference, I would say FD has to make this an in game tutorial. Would save players HUGE amounts of time and avoid the boredom of super cruising. Will comment on my findings! Thanks for the links.

 

[Stigbob]

Will you actually discuss now instead of being my personal grammar checker?

Glass houses and whatnot.

Could you set the color to auto?