Make supercruise like the oceans during WWII

[Eliza]

Great idea. I have a complement

WWII is too old. We are in the space in third millenium so to improve the strategic batlefield and fun we need to create more technologie and stuffs to make the game more interesting. Other wise we will go back to the caveS time

For exemplo the game could have a module that triplicate your signal or create ghost signals when you are in SP. A pirate will have 1 chance in 3 to really interdict you.

Other stuff must created in this line of think, but limit or nerfed what we already have, again is go back to time cave. We need to go forward

Life long and prosper cmdrs

Nice suggestion so far. But referring to the 31st century, technology must have suffered some serious drawbacks "in the last couple of hundred years". Why?

WW2-Style Dogfights (so alone with THIS, a WW2-Style SC-ocean would fit quite fair)
No interstellar autopilot via existing starmaps
Short-Range Sensors are limited to about 10km. (21st-century fighters have a radar-range >100nm (200KM))
No interstellar communication although we have FTL-Drives.
We're still fighting each others with kinetic weaponry (railguns, multi-cannons, rockets).
In the 21st century we were able to fire probes across an entire solar-system.

Just a few of the technology "plot-holes" I discovered.

Live Long and Prosper too, Commander!

Addendum: Yet alone from the physical/technology view: Stellar bodies are emitting a hell lots of EM and Gravimetrical disturbances. So "Discovery-shadows" would be VERY logical. The same goes for planetary objects, foremost the colonized are emitting lots of EM-waves.

And with that SC-Overhaul Gankers and Griefers finally have to "GitGud" in finding their victims. Alone that fact got me to upvote with OldDucks proposal. It's simply brilliant.

 

[A C Ender]

Nice suggestion so far. But referring to the 31st century, technology must have suffered some serious drawbacks "in the last couple of hundred years". Why?

WW2-Style Dogfights (so alone with THIS, a WW2-Style SC-ocean would fit quite fair)
No interstellar autopilot via existing starmaps
Short-Range Sensors are limited to about 10km. (21st-century fighters have a radar-range >100nm (200KM))
No interstellar communication although we have FTL-Drives.
We're still fighting each others with kinetic weaponry (railguns, multi-cannons, rockets).
In the 21st century we were able to fire probes across an entire solar-system.

Just a few of the technology "plot-holes" I discovered.

Live Long and Prosper too, Commander!

Addendum: Yet alone from the physical/technology view: Stellar bodies are emitting a hell lots of EM and Gravimetrical disturbances. So "Discovery-shadows" would be VERY logical. The same goes for planetary objects, foremost the colonized are emitting lots of EM-waves.

And with that SC-Overhaul Gankers and Griefers finally have to "GitGud" in finding their victims. Alone that fact got me to upvote with OldDucks proposal. It's simply brilliant.

Maybe the Union (pilots federation) is so strong as to not allow automation of piloting. An alternative would also be that AI or automation aren't allowed to be in charge of any weapon capable system. The slow dogfighting may be because as former, and humans have proved incapable to handle higher speeds (reaction times) and acceleration.

As for kinetic weapons, why is this not reasonable? The purpose of a weapon is to project damage over distance. You're either looking at massless (energy) weapons or kinetic. What is most effective then comes down to how efficient you can convert energy from your power source (ship inate or external) to useful energy. If a massless weapon cannot pierce (as in the armour aren't transparent to the energy) your armour you're mostly looking to penetrate by melting/evaporation of armour which is limited by thermal conductivity and melting/boiling point. If you can penetrate the armour (neutron beams, gamma rays etc) then to transfer the energy into damage you still need something inside the ship to absorb that damage. Many massless weapons can also be reflected (mirror). Though we don't yet have gamma mirrors, we may in the future.

With all those points in mind, I don't think kinetic weapons will lose their place. Also might interest you too look up relativistic weapons. It may be a non issue in the elite universe due to how our FTL work and none is willing or able to spend the energy to allow relativistic weapons.

There are some definitely (apperant) plot holes however, the short sensor range being one.

 

[Eliza]

Nice fluff so far.
Nevertheless, regarding the OP's proposal of "limited" sensors-capabilities, comparable with WW2 Naval-tactics is still valid and very well explainable.

I just wanted to point out, that it's difficult to refer, that 31st century tech could/should support "systemwide" vessel-checkups, just for (no offense) "lazy" commanders.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

I've suggested similar ideas in the past.

Just modify things in SuperCruise travel, so that a few Options exist. Options which are tactical decisions and have pros/cons to consider.

In a really short and basic form :

Concept : Thermal Signature and Ship Throttle form a "FSD Signature", a measure how far away other Vessels can pick you up as a Contact

• slam Throttle forward and travel at max. Acceleration/Speed? FSD is working at 100% performance, hence you're highly visible. Quick travel but high chance of drawing attention
• initially remain idle after arrival and carefully/slowly sneak through SuperCruise? You're barely visible, only from very close ranges. Slow travel but low chance of drawing attention

• cold builds have a slight advantage, hot builds have a slight disadvantage
• Heat Sink can be used in SuperCruise to temporarily reduce signature to a minimum (there's your chance to evade an incoming hot contact)

With those factors alone, moving the Throttle in SuperCruise becomes a tactical play which can very easily result in very interesting cat & mouse gameplay.

Do you take your time near the Sun to assess what's going on - or do you try to make a quick dash for the Station?
Do you prefer fastest possible arrival but give away you position to anyone - or is safer arrival your priority and you accept a slower travel (and longer exposure time that goes with it)?
When do you deploy one of your precious Heat Sinks? And if you do, where do you maneuver your Ship in those ~10sec you gain? Come to a standstill and hope that contact in your six will overshoot? Or do you make a hard turn while at max. Throttle?

Decisions, decisions....
All of which work for (or against) you in realtime.
And it's no different for the other side, cause any attacker will have to make similar decisions to optimize the chances of success.

As some icing on the cake, how about a simple ESM indicator?
We already have something very similar above the fuel gauge, so this could be utilized to see

• own Emission levels (how visible is your Ship with the Signature you create)
• are you being actively targeted (locked) by any other Ship and from which direction (Lock Warning) or is someone even already firing an FSDI against you (analog to Missile/Torpedo Warning)

There's your ESM "shadow gameplay" of cat & mouse along with it.

More icing on the cake and flesh things out?
Make Ship size (rather : FSD size) matter.
Large potent Vessel with a huge FSD? Higher baseline Signature, you're operating a huge piece of Equipment that's propelling your large Vessel.
Medium or even small Vessel with a small FSD? Lower baseline Signature.
(a Cutter or Corvette is more difficult to sneak around ; a Sidewinder? Not so much, much harder to pick up.)

----------------------------------

That's roughly what I had in mind.

 

[A C Ender]

I've suggested similar ideas in the past.

Just modify things in SuperCruise travel, so that a few Options exist. Options which are tactical decisions and have pros/cons to consider.

In a really short and basic form :

Concept : Thermal Signature and Ship Throttle form a "FSD Signature", a measure how far away other Vessels can pick you up as a Contact

• slam Throttle forward and travel at max. Acceleration/Speed? FSD is working at 100% performance, hence you're highly visible. Quick travel but high chance of drawing attention
• initially remain idle after arrival and carefully/slowly sneak through SuperCruise? You're barely visible, only from very close ranges. Slow travel but low chance of drawing attention

• cold builds have a slight advantage, hot builds have a slight disadvantage
• Heat Sink can be used in SuperCruise to temporarily reduce signature to a minimum (there's your chance to evade an incoming hot contact)

With those factors alone, moving the Throttle in SuperCruise becomes a tactical play which can very easily result in very interesting cat & mouse gameplay.

Do you take your time near the Sun to assess what's going on - or do you try to make a quick dash for the Station?
Do you prefer fastest possible arrival but give away you position to anyone - or is safer arrival your priority and you accept a slower travel (and longer exposure time that goes with it)?
When do you deploy one of your precious Heat Sinks? And if you do, where do you maneuver your Ship in those ~10sec you gain? Come to a standstill and hope that contact in your six will overshoot? Or do you make a hard turn while at max. Throttle?

Decisions, decisions....
All of which work for (or against) you in realtime.
And it's no different for the other side, cause any attacker will have to make similar decisions to optimize the chances of success.

As some icing on the cake, how about a simple ESM indicator?
We already have something very similar above the fuel gauge, so this could be utilized to see

• own Emission levels (how visible is your Ship with the Signature you create)
• are you being actively targeted (locked) by any other Ship and from which direction (Lock Warning) or is someone even already firing an FSDI against you (analog to Missile/Torpedo Warning)

There's your ESM "shadow gameplay" of cat & mouse along with it.

More icing on the cake and flesh things out?
Make Ship size (rather : FSD size) matter.
Large potent Vessel with a huge FSD? Higher baseline Signature, you're operating a huge piece of Equipment that's propelling your large Vessel.
Medium or even small Vessel with a small FSD? Lower baseline Signature.
(a Cutter or Corvette is more difficult to sneak around ; a Sidewinder? Not so much, much harder to pick up.

----------------------------------

That's roughly what I had in mind.

I think your sensor range should;

• Reduce the faster you go (more interference from your FSD)
  
• Reduce the closer you are to mass (distortion of the field by mass)

I think your signature should;

• Reduce the slower you go (less frame shift distortion)
  
• Increase the further you are from mass (easier to pick out from background)

The speed component should be stronger than the mass component for being detected, so that throttling to 30km/s always is a good way to try and avoid detection even in deep space. The mass component should be stronger than speed for your sensors detection, so that if you're hunting you want to stay far from mass (at minimal speed too) to detect your targets. Otherwise you'll just go as quick and close as you can to detect and reach people. If you gun it from the start to the port a deep space listener should be able to spot you from far and accelerate towards you, detecting you unless you get very close to mass or throttle down to 30. You being close to mass and high throttle should mean that you won't see them before they're close.

 

[Drelthar]

Well, to be honest, it's more a question of why can we only see a few km when in normal space...

Detection of other vessels in space would be a pretty simple thing.

Any concept of stealth while cool, is... Questionable.

The current little detectors we have on earth can pick out miniscule fluctuations across light years.

Imagine how easy some actual high tech space ship scanners should be able to pick up massive levels of heat/radiation from all these massive spaceships with fusion generators constantly running would be....

I guess, you might, maybe, be able to somewhat to a tiny extent mask your signature if you are close to a sun and between that sun and the detector. Maybe...

That said, it's cool and fun, and this is a game.

So, SURE!

 

[Old Duck]

The current little detectors we have on earth can pick out miniscule fluctuations across light years.

Yet we often miss asteroids until they are right on top of us... And we're talking about the magical world of FTL where the rules of the real world do not apply, so for the sake of game play, sensor range could be nerfed without "ruining science".

 

[Screemonster]

I love this suggestion. Having sensors more directional would be great too.

Longer sensor range (and lower signature) when moving slowly.
Honk the discovery scanner for a temporary long-range scan that reveals ships in a huge range, but also reveals your own position.
Use the FSS to detect ships and target-lock at a much longer range, but also reveal your position to anything in your current FSS vision cone.
Targets on the other side of an astronomical body cannot be detected by any means and target lock is broken as soon as LOS is. You know, like they are in CQC.
For fun: stellar bodies also obscure things directly in front of them - it's impossible to pick out something as small as a ship against such a dazzlingly bright flare.

And here's the fun part:

Targets within a narrow cone of the front of your ship should be able to be detected and targeted at a much greater range, even if they're far enough away not to show on your scanners, and currently-locked targets are not "lost" unless they move out of the sorts of ranges you can detect ships at using the current mechanics or you turn far enough for them to move out of your FOV. This passive-lock should not reveal your position, meaning that if you're being sneaky, you can lurk in a shipping lane, spot the little comet-flare of a ship jumping in, and take a nice quiet look at them before moving to intercept - with luck, you might be able to get into interdiction range before they even realise you're there!

 

[Azmuth Divarchchron]

There can be no serious discussion about this when the op thinks all the reasoning in the game's design choices is magic instead of science.

 

[nanite2000]

There can be no serious discussion about this when the op thinks all the reasoning in the game's design choices is magic instead of science.

And yet here we all are having a reasonable discussion about it.

+1 OP!

 

[Leper Messiah]

There can be no serious discussion about this when the op thinks all the reasoning in the game's design choices is magic instead of science.

Because the game has so much "handwavium" in a whole multitude of areas for "gameplay" reasons. Thus a little bit more that makes the game more fun is something to be supported.

 

[MK Regular]

There can be no serious discussion about this when the op thinks all the reasoning in the game's design choices is magic instead of science.

Citation needed

The problem with this idea is that your ship's sensors use tachyon pulses to detect objects, which is faster than light.
And it auto detects objects that are within a certian proximity to your ship which is also affected by frame distortion by astronomical bodies.
Your automatic radar detection range gets longer the further you are from an astronomical body and shorter the closer you are you are to an astronomical body because of frame distortion caused by the astronomical body.

If you are in deep space your sensors can see everything automatically within about 5,000 ls and drops to about 50-100 ls when in low orbit around an astronomical body.

In low orbit this idea has merit, listening for contacts in a system as they appear as "pulses" in the discovery suite.
In deep space the only use case for this would be looking for ships in low orbit around planets or stars.
(Fun fact being in low orbit near a planet actually stealths your ship from long range sensors thanks to frame distortion)

You could easily say that using your FSD emits high-powered (even though energy decreases as speed increases) tachyons that would make you more visible to other ships depending on how hard your FSD is working (based on speed and acceleration) but may or may not impede you own ship's sensors.

Of course, given that our current understanding is that the imaginary mass fields required for tachyons don't actually travel faster than light it might as well be a moot point.

 

[Old Duck]

There can be no serious discussion about this when the op thinks all the reasoning in the game's design choices is magic instead of science.

All due respect, but supercruise as implemented IS magic, and if you can't see that, then your grade school science teacher failed you.

 

[Hell Razor5543]

It's great idea! But there is a catch: Wolf hanging near the nav beacon will be able to see every sheep jumping into the system.

True, but in a High Security system there would also be several Authority vessels (maybe even a decent size fleet) in the vicinity of the Nav Beacons (much in the same ways as you had the RAF and Fleet Air Arm (and the Royal Navy Home Fleet) covering the costal waters during WWII).

 

[Azmuth Divarchchron]

All due respect, but supercruise as implemented IS magic, and if you can't see that, then your grade school science teacher failed you.

Its really not but what ever makes your unicorn happy

 

[Eliza]

All due respect, but supercruise as implemented IS magic, and if you can't see that, then your grade school science teacher failed you.

What travelling 2000 times faster than light is NOT REAL? Are you KIDDING me? And next you want to tell me Santa Clause doesn't exist? You know what? I HATE you sooo much!

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Nice and original suggestion. I also would recommend having something like sensor lock on, meaning when you lock on target your sensors will not scan anything else, making hunter vulnerable for surprise attacks. Unless hunter periodically unlocks to have wide scan, and takes possibility of loosing target.

 

[rootsrat]

So here's my line of thinking this morning that lead me to the simple suggestion to follow. I'm running cargo for the CG in a T9. I think to myself, "Why do gankers need to destroy my ship, why not just ask me to drop my cargo like NPCs do and let me continue?" But then I continue this line of thought, "But I suppose this can be realistic - submarines during WWII would SINK cargo ships, not just pull them over and demand them to dump the cargo." Which led me to have warm, fuzzy memories about all the WWII submarine games I've played over the years, which then led me to this eureka:

Make hunting in SC like a WWII submarine game, where the hunt is a major part of the game!

How do we do this? Simple - seriously nerf scanner range in supercruise.

Everyone says supercruise is to show us how big space is, yet when an entire chunk of solar system, including every ship within zillians of kilometers is visible on my tiny radar, supercuise actually feels much smaller than the comparatively small ocean in my WWII game. Space is BIG, is it not? How is it I can see every ship in the system on my sensors? Now imagine if I could only see those in close proximity - this would add an entire new layer of gameplay, and it would help balance the incredible advantage gankers currently have over traders. Gankers could still gank, using proper Navy wolfpack patrol tactics along shipping lanes, but it would require some skill to actually find and intercept traders.

On the flip-side, traders don't get an instant "easy mode" pass from this, as they won't be able to see wolf packs until it's too late. They could potentially avoid many of these ambushes by flying outside the shipping lanes, but that'll take effort and cost them time (thus incentivizing rich traders to build ships that can "ram through" wolf packs on the trade routes). Another mechanism to help give balance is to make detection in SC based on ship's speed, not as it currently is, but opposite of how it currently is. In other words, the faster you are traveling, the LESS you can see in SC, whereas sitting still allows you to see MORE, just like sonar on Naval ships work today. This means a wolf pack would be "invisible" on SC radar to a fast-moving trader until the trader is on top of them, and then boom, interdiction!

Also, wings could be used to share this SC data, so that if you are in a wing that is spread out through the solar system, and one ship in the wing gets a "ping", all ships in the wing see that ping on their scanners.

Did I mention that this improved gameplay and sense of immersion and scale would be TRIVIAL to implement? All Frontier needs to do is greatly reduce sensor range (the current range making zero sense in light of, well, light speed). Within this new limited range, have sensor resolution based on ship speed to mimic IRL ship sonar - faster means reduced sensors due to FTL wake interference, whereas dead stop gives the longest range (but still tiny compared to the size of the solar system).

I'm telling you, it's brilliant, BRILLIANT!!!!

I like this a lot.

I can imagine it could be then further expanded with engineer modifications of various type to enhance the scanner. (BTW it's a scanner, not a radar ).

 

[Azmuth Divarchchron]

What travelling 2000 times faster than light is NOT REAL? Are you KIDDING me? And next you want to tell me Santa Clause doesn't exist? You know what? I HATE you sooo much!

Thats besides the point, there are principles that surround the fsd that frontier based it on such as frame dragging which is actually a proven stellar phenomenon.
But i know that the op isnt going to listen to any of the scientific explanations or theories used when designing how the fsd works. And refuses to view it as anything other than magic rather than a thought out implementation of a FTL drive.
Not only that but frame dragging actually supports that alcubierre is possible.

 

[Eliza]

Thats besides the point, there are principles that surround the fsd that frontier based it on such as frame dragging which is actually a proven stellar phenomenon.
But i know that the op isnt going to listen to any of the scientific explanations or theories used when designing how the fsd works. And refuses to view it as anything other than magic rather than a thought out implementation of a FTL drive.
Not only that but frame dragging actually supports that alcubierre is possible.

Then...acoording to the Alcubierre theory "supercruise" is also possible. It's then based on the same principle regarding folding spacetime (FSD with less energy output/consumption). No more handwavium regarding supercruise. But then again...why is it limited to 2000x ftl-speed? Even with a ion-drive, one should be able to achieve near lightspeed...disregarding the time needed to get up to such immense speeds.