Proposal: alternative to outright removal of ADS instascan & system map minigame for explorers

[Pville_Piper]

Then you should get zero credits from this operation because you discovered nothing!

I have absolutely no issue with getting zero credits for ANY already discovered system, nav beacon or not. Does that clear it up for you?

It makes no sense to wander into a system that is populated, with stations, traffic, ect... and receive credits for scanning it, let alone any system with a nav beacon. If you need to make credits, there are tons of ways to do it in this game, lets do it in a way that makes sense.

Good idea,this could well remove the need to spend time using a dedicated explorer mechanic when traversing the bubble.At the moment i gather the idea is to visit the nav beacon,which could become quite tedious.

And make no sense either.

 

[Kestril]

Explorers need to have some tool to quickly judge whether a system is interesting and worth further study or not, and this black body system map would provide that tool nicely. The new FSS can't fill this role as it will take longer than a few seconds to gather an overall system layout. The FSS should be the tool you use to take closer looks at the planets AFTER you've decided to stay awhile and listen.

But the tool to quickly judge IS the waveform. WW / ELW will have a different waveform to scan. So, after a bit of gameplay sussing out what waves are what, it'd be easy to interpret the system waveform for abnormalities or not.

That's the interpretive gameplay. Remove that and exploring gets to point and wait really fast.

Instead of:
Honk -> Map -> Move on.

It's
Honk -> Interpret Wave -> Move on.

The difference is that the wave is different for every system and requires a degree of interpretation. Thus, giving gameplay and rewarding explorers who know the different signals of the different bodies. With enough knowledge, you won't have to tune the radio to tell what's what, and will be able to identify interesting signals by sight alone.

 

[Mengy]

But the tool to quickly judge IS the waveform. WW / ELW will have a different waveform to scan. So, after a bit of gameplay sussing out what waves are what, it'd be easy to interpret the system waveform for abnormalities or not.

That's the interpretive gameplay. Remove that and exploring gets to point and wait really fast.

Instead of:
Honk -> Map -> Move on.

It's
Honk -> Interpret Wave -> Move on.

The difference is that the wave is different for every system and requires a degree of interpretation. Thus, giving gameplay and rewarding explorers who know the different signals of the different bodies. With enough knowledge, you won't have to tune the radio to tell what's what, and will be able to identify interesting signals by sight alone.

Unfortunately a quick glance at the waveform can not convey system structure (at least I don't see how it can), and there are many explorers who go out looking for interesting layouts like moons orbiting closely to ringed planets, or close binary pairs, or planets close in to a star for example. I'm not saying the waveform is bad, I'm saying it's not enough to convey adequate information at the start of exploring a system. A basic system map showing the layout only of a system would be enough to fill this hole in the proposed new tools.

 

[Red Anders]

I have absolutely no issue with getting zero credits for ANY already discovered system, nav beacon or not. Does that clear it up for you?

It makes no sense to wander into a system that is populated, with stations, traffic, ect... and receive credits for scanning it, let alone any system with a nav beacon. If you need to make credits, there are tons of ways to do it in this game, lets do it in a way that makes sense.

Indeed. I've never understood why Universal Cartographics pay out for their 137,000th scan of some random craphole on the edge of the bubble with an outpost and two planets.

Yep, I've come to believe that this is the best version of the "honk" for 3.3 as well. It's a compromise between the 4 year old honk and Frontier's proposed "3.3 honk reveals main star only" design.

When I first linked the pic of the 2.2 beta black spheres map and accompanying thread into the feedback thread last week, I was actually going to add that a more cynical man than me could think that there was a potential bait and switch here.

FDev obviously realised that a minority of players liked the black sphere map sufficiently that they wanted it in the game (despite the fact it was initially just a bug) but when it got polled on the forum, more people kicked off about it than supported it (75% against, 25% for). Thing is, then it was perceived as something 'worse' than the existing system for those who liked the ADS scan reveal as it is now, since it presented less information. So let's apply basic negotiation techniques - what's the simplest way to get people behind an option that they would previously have considered unpalatable? Present them with one which is (to them) even more unpalatable, at which point the original option starts to seem positively desirable.

Note - I'm not saying I think this actually is what they're up to. I may be cynical enough for the thought to cross my mind but I'm not enough of a conspiracy theory fan to believe that it's the way they go about their business. Well, not all the time anyway

Worth noting that with regard to Ziljan's point about it fundamentally changing the revealed mechanics of the new scanning system, such a theory would assume that there was in fact already work done on a second possible implementation in case it was needed. Again, I'm not saying I actually believe this, not least because of the amount of additional time it would have taken to produced two separate implementations to begin with. It will be interesting if another possible implementation does miraculously appear in a couple of weeks time though.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Indeed. I've never understood why Universal Cartographics pay out for their 137,000th scan of some random craphole on the edge of the bubble with an outpost and two planets.



When I first linked the pic of the 2.2 beta black spheres map and accompanying thread into the feedback thread last week, I was actually going to add that a more cynical man than me could think that there was a potential bait and switch here.

FDev obviously realised that a minority of players liked the black sphere map sufficiently that they wanted it in the game (despite the fact it was initially just a bug) but when it got polled on the forum, more people kicked off about it than supported it (75% against, 25% for). Thing is, then it was perceived as something 'worse' than the existing system for those who liked the ADS scan reveal as it is now, since it presented less information. So let's apply basic negotiation techniques - what's the simplest way to get people behind an option that they would previously have considered unpalatable? Present them with one which is (to them) even more unpalatable, at which point the original option starts to seem positively desirable.

Note - I'm not saying I think this actually is what they're up to. I may be cynical enough for the thought to cross my mind but I'm not enough of a conspiracy theory fan to believe that it's the way they go about their business. Well, not all the time anyway

Worth noting that with regard to Ziljan's point about it fundamentally changing the revealed mechanics of the new scanning system, such a theory would assume that there was in fact already work done on a second possible implementation in case it was needed. Again, I'm not saying I actually believe this, not least because of the amount of additional time it would have taken to produced two separate implementations to begin with. It will be interesting if another possible implementation does miraculously appear in a couple of weeks time though.

That's okay - I posited that bait & switch theory already for you

By the way, the grey spheres thing is actual code. It's been in the game since the start, as Michael Brookes himself stated that the grey spheres code was being triggered by a bug - not that the grey spheres were a bug - because the grey spheres was how Frontier wanted the system map to behave from the start....

While this was the original design for the scanners (fixing a separate issue has had a knock-on effect) the behaviour for the this view will return to its previous state. However you will need to have completed a surface scan to see the surface in the surface map, with no surface scan it will default to the sphere grid.

Michael

So my guess is the MakePlanetsGreyUntilScanned() code is still lying in the game client, dormant, and Frontier will reach a 'compromise' where the grey spheres code will be reactivated. And we'll be asked to grudgingly accept it.

 

[Ziljan]

Worth noting that with regard to Ziljan's point about it fundamentally changing the revealed mechanics of the new scanning system, such a theory would assume that there was in fact already work done on a second possible implementation in case it was needed. Again, I'm not saying I actually believe this, not least because of the amount of additional time it would have taken to produced two separate implementations to begin with. It will be interesting if another possible implementation does miraculously appear in a couple of weeks time though.

The point about the OP's suggestion fundamentally breaking the new scanning system is based on the description of the new scanning system in both the devs post and the livestream. What we know about the active portion of the scanning is based on adjusting the energy and distance filters, at which point the object is brought into a zoomed in view and then resolved by further tuning the the energy distribution filter. If we know where the object is on the System Map, then why wouldn't we be able to completely bypass the filtered zoom and just select it instead. And if we couldn't select it then why would the System Map be at all useful. And logically, why would we be able to tell the structure and location of everything, and not be able to select any of it? That makes no sense, and hence such a compromise without a selectable map would likely lead to player's heads exploding from the paradoxes. Either way, the system map auto-reveal combined with the proposed filter functionality is likely to be a poison pill for the whole thing.

If any kind of autoreveal is implemented then the filters function would need to be altered from what they described in the livestream in order to still be relevant. It's not impossible, I just wonder if it's doable. If it is, I say go for it.

There is no requirement that a second level of functionality would have to already exist. In fact, I would presume that no such second functionality exists, and that any change or major deviation from the Dev's propose system would cause a delay or for it to be rushed out the door. I am hesitant to suggest any dramatic changes to the mechanic for this very reason.

The code for the OP's map already exists as I am sure you are well aware since it's based on a screenshot of accidentally implemented code.

 

[Mengy]

Frankly, I am shocked that this made it 8 pages and into an OA video, and no one realized that the OP's suggestion wholly obviates the entirety of the dev's scanning mechanic, and returns us back to the current brain dead point-n-wait mechanic.

I don't see how it does? A black sphere system map is only showing structure, nothing else. You'd still need to use the FSS to get any tangible data on anything. The problem with the waveform only is that it doesn't convey structure at all, not until you've scanned every object in the system. Many explorers go looking for interesting layouts to explore, and if they can't tell the layout until they are done detail scanning the entire system then they won't be able to explore in the manner they want to.

If they have any kind of auto-revealed "black sphere" map, then the entire function of the 2 active filters (energy & distance) would have to be revamped.

I don't see why they would need to be revamped? The two filters would still be used to resolve the planet scan just like they are now in 3.3. The black sphere map would just allow an explorer to choose a body they are interested in for structural reasons if they wanted to. Stuart's proposal doesn't take anything away from the 3.3 proposal, it just adds a new tool to the kit to fulfill a purpose which Frontier's system misses (quick structure analysis).

It would have to be necessary to select the object, or manually center it on a gravity anomaly, and then move the 2 active filters to the correct part of the spectrum (focusing on the right distance, and the right energy) in order to resolve the object. Basically the filter would have to work in reverse. Instead of auto zooming on the object, you'd need to ID its correct signal & distance. Frankly, that's not a terrible idea, but I wonder if the devs have the time needed to switch up their functionality. This would also mean that the map could only reveal the basic structure, but not any actual distances, which is fine because the system map isn't to scale anyway.

I think this is fine, having the honked black sphere sys map convey structure but no actual distance data. I think it would also be fine if the honked sys map would be nigh worthless credit wise.

The point isn't to explore by the quick honk black sphere map, it's to simply convey structure only so an explorer can make a fast judgement call on whether or not they want to hang around or move on. IF structure is something they are looking for.

 

[GJ51]

Forgive my stupidity

Why is it we need to remove things we've been doing for 4 years to add depth/content?

Adding more depth and detail to what we have makes sense to me.

Removing what we've had for the past 4 years just doesn't.

Must be getting old...

 

[Mengy]

Forgive my stupidity

Why is it we need to remove things we've been doing for 4 years to add depth/content?

Adding more depth and detail to what we have makes sense to me.

Removing what we've had for the past 4 years just doesn't.

Must be getting old...

Eh, I honestly feel that the current live honk is too powerful. It's so powerful that it makes implementing some meaningful exploration mechanics alongside it difficult. Frontier almost had to nerf it at least somewhat.

That said, some aspects of the honk are very useful, not from an "I win" point of view but rather from a basic quick shot informational viewpoint. Particularly the aspects of it which the new FSS can't convey, like the system structural view.

Now, ideally I'd love to see the honk create a black body 3D Orrery map, but Frontier continues to not want to do an Orrery for some reason.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

When this bug(?) was first introduced, the mainstream community in elite was hugely different.

I always really liked this idea. I couldn't understand where the logic for this came from. I think people.. in that specific thread... were just getting pied piperd by the two content creators who had started to argue against the changes. When i looked in it blew my mind how this could be.. see i don't have a video content recording meta game that these people do. Their exploration game extended far out into the real world involving hardware, software, other companies, money.. their "game" for exploration was huge.

Just as a normal player, i looked at the bug and instantly lit up thinking some novelty of not knowing what the object would be a nice bone to throw to flying all the way out there, at least it will be surprise what it is, and seeing it for the first time would be in game rather than the system map.

The changes (restoring the old bug/design) plus balancing the per system credit reward (again im not a content creator, IN GAME REWARDS HELP....) to just be COMPETITIVE WITH THE MISSION BOARD would have been completely fine, a trivial amount of work to do, and they probably wouldn't even need to change the exploration mechanic right now.

Another alternative would be to show signatures via orbit lines.

We could look at some decorations on these and decide if we want to go there or not. More immersion and keeps you out of the system map (probably the reason why the orrery concept was never built, people would just play that instead, some explorers already are it seems )

Im not looking forward to the clusterf of beta. I hope it ends well. As long as frontier does it one way or the other.. if we end up with another feature frontier intended nerfed into pointlessness because of capitulation.. how many more of these can the game take You don't actually get what you want people, you get a broken bloodied version of the something different that frontier originally intended.

 

[Ziljan]

I think this is fine, having the honked black sphere sys map convey structure but no actual distance data. I think it would also be fine if the honked sys map would be nigh worthless credit wise.

The point isn't to explore by the quick honk black sphere map, it's to simply convey structure only so an explorer can make a fast judgement call on whether or not they want to hang around or move on. IF structure is something they are looking for.

I was going to respond to the first two snipped quotes, but it seems like you got my point in the third section about the need to include the functionality of the two active scan filters (energy & distance) proposed by the Devs. Looks like we're on the same page now. Yes I think such a proposal could definitely work and make most people reasonably happy:

It would have to be necessary to select the object, or manually center it on a gravity anomaly, and then move the 2 active filters to the correct part of the spectrum (focusing on the right distance, and the right energy) in order to resolve the object. Basically the filter would have to work in reverse. Instead of auto zooming on the object, you'd need to ID its correct signal & distance. Frankly, that's not a terrible idea, but I wonder if the devs have the time needed to switch up their functionality. This would also mean that the map could only reveal the basic structure, but not any actual distances, which is fine because the system map isn't to scale anyway.

 

[kofeyh]

Never has so much been said about so little. Frontier are back to front-loading tasks for a thing, instead of adding more into the thing. And the forum is so busy arguing semantics the developer is happily freed to do this with the same gusto they have had for many of the other tone-deaf repetitive mechanics that are then debated, at length.

This place, let' them do this. Over and over again. Then blame players for the outcomes. But let's get one thing crystal clear here. Even the developer doesnt quite understand what they have built yet somehow folks just have it all squared away, fine.

Beta should be equal parts fascinating then folks walking back a positon to some new position because accepting that this, the pursuit of endless, pointless process, is all Elite now stands for, is a bridge too far and surely that can't be it, can it?

Amazing. Five years on, there aren't the discussions on what exists, where it is, or why. Just endless navel gazing over just quite the right sort of soulless mechanic few outside of this place will have any interest in.

Incredible. Well done. Frontier are struggling with the basics, dropping content and trying to front load as much as possible whilst the broader commubity has its actual interests deep-sixed and you're all arguing quite the right way to hide planets or filter the observable out of the entire process.

But it's okay, because it will punish some vague group of people in an unclear fashion so that's fine because they aren't real commanders anyway.

If that sounds like it might be less the developer that has a disconnect, and more the forum does at this point? You-betcha.

Perfect.

Edit: this place is really good at creating an echo over process, and less good at vigorous debate about the filling of the galaxy, and the lack there of. Frontier have a massive game that should be full of life. Its instead ended up like navigating a tax return form.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

Never has so much been said about so little.

Forgive for saying, that sounds just like your post.

"Burnt white knight was here." would be the short version.

Why don't we all learn from your wisdom there kofeyh.

Also i do feel for you, i understand passion for elite. If my bones let me be a white knight i would probably be the same, but i just cant after seeing them first in world of warcraft and finding it very dumb. A conservative mindset joined to addiction at best.

 

[MrFailfactory]

One day, two people engaging in Exploration activities run into each other at the top of a rise. The view is great, no danger seems to be imminent, so they both sit and take a rest. While sitting, they both spy the glitter of a river in the distance, and have a small conversation about it.

They get up to leave:

One of them starts walking toward the river, to see where it might lead.

The other, starts walking off in another direction because he doesn't see a pyramid poking out of the trees along the line of the river.

Since this is the E.x.p.l.o.r.a.t.i.o.n update, I humbly suggest that Frontier should cater to the former type, and not the latter type.

Riôt

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

I have absolutely no issue with getting zero credits for ANY already discovered system, nav beacon or not. Does that clear it up for you?

I'm very fine with it too. So let's talk about real exploration, not scanning beacons.

 

[Dizzy B High]

Yeah, the new system seems far too....grindy. Big surprise. ADS should detect everything, then give hints about things worth investigating further, if you so choose.

It detects everything, and shows you that in the electromagnetic waveform, the hints it gives are the different wave patterns, which gives you the information on wether you should investigate it further if you choose...

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

It detects everything, and shows you that in the electromagnetic waveform, the hints it gives are the different wave patterns, which gives you the information on wether you should investigate it further if you choose...

Which is one of the most idiotic designs ever.

 

[GormDeGamle]

Exploration is by far my main profession and never ever believed the "honk" as it is now was a mechanic worth keeping.
It just seems wrong to me to ba able to see everything at once just by entering the system.
It does not feel like exploring it feels like driving with detailed street map.
Sure, there should be a mechanic that gives you the information to quickly judge if a system is worth further investigation or not.
But I do trust Frontier that the new mechanic will provide just this.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I was going to respond to the first two snipped quotes, but it seems like you got my point in the third section about the need to include the functionality of the two active scan filters (energy & distance) proposed by the Devs. Looks like we're on the same page now. Yes I think such a proposal could definitely work and make most people reasonably happy:

Two parties arguing from a certain place and both considering the other one's viewpoint to arrive at a position both are satisfied with?

Ok.

I seem to have logged into the wrong forum. Can anyone tell me the way to the Dangerous Discussions?

 

[babelfisch]

Two parties arguing from a certain place and both considering the other one's viewpoint to arrive at a position both are satisfied with?

Ok.

I seem to have logged into the wrong forum. Can anyone tell me the way to the Dangerous Discussions?

Just look two posts above and everything will be well again.

Which is one of the most idiotic designs ever.

From a game design perspective an all mighty discover everything button is the most idiotic design ever.