The Star Citizen Thread v5

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You made absolutely no point, CryEngine looks great, that's a fact.

No, "looks great" is a subjective opinion. And you yourself have made the point that the quality of the result is to do with the work of the artists using it, CryEngine doesn't look like anything at all in itself. The "fact" is that SC is being built on a fork of an engine that was current about 5 years ago. If you're talking solely about "looks" rather than extraneous features like local physics grids and 64 bit positioning, I've personally seen nothing that couldn't have been achieved in stock CryEngine 5 years ago.

But SC's primary problem, especially compared with Elite, is that right now there is almost nothing to show for it except the feted graphical fidelity. So it had better look good, because if development takes so long that it starts to look dated and sub-par, which some might argue has already happened, then there's nothing left to fall back on. You can't use the "it's not about the graphics, it's about the gameplay" excuse for a game which has zero gameplay.
 
Ok, disclaimer first: it's Friday, I've had a few, I'm going to try to minimise the drunken tangentrambles but who knows.
Rightso...

<snip>

First off, just so I don't get some "aha! SSE only exists on PC" type gotcha-ing, I'm going to start saying SIMD (single instruction, multiple data). SSE is a kind of SIMD, there's a newer PC one called AVX, on the 360 it was Altivec... all variants of the same idea - several numbers side by side in one wide register, and you can do the same operation on all of them in a single instruction.
What Derek's link above doesn't mention is that you tend to wrap all these weird types and unpronouncable intrinsics into a more user friendly, multi-platform friendly container, so if you need to, say, get the Y component out of it, you call a thing called "GetY" and it gives you the right thing. What it's doing at a hardware level, though, is shuffling the components around so Y is at the start, or is all of them, and it's taken a whole operation that could have done four of something else.
So how does a coding standard matter for this? Well, take these two apparently identical operations (yeah someone probably wouldn't do exactly this, but hopefully you see the point):
Code:
1) Vec C = A + B
2) Vec C = Vec( A.GetX + B.GetX, A.GetY + B.GetY, A.GetZ + B.GetZ)
Option 1 is one operation. Option 2 takes six swizzles, three adds, and maybe some more swizzles and masks packing them together at the end. It's also the kind of code that's easier to write when you're trying to think about a problem rather than ideal vectorisation. This is where I talk about fanaticism, and where Frontier shines, IMO, because not only did they design a really idiot-proof vector library, but they have a general attitude that if you try to work around the interface design and start writing sloppy code, someone comes to your desk and kicks your butt for it. This kind of sloppiness naturally creeps in, but Frontier's general culture is one where you get called out even on apparently harmless deviations from the standard, so the standard stays strong. So there you go - fanatical cleanliness, miles of well-build explicitly 32-bit SIMD code, well worth sticking in 32-bit and working around the pain it causes.

So CryTek didn't do the things above. Obviously they've put out some groundbreaking tech over the years, but "fanatical cleanliness" isn't exactly their watchword. Watchphrase. I asked a guy who used to work there why there wasn't an explicit SIMD vector library like wot I was used to, and he said they'd trialled one, but because the original interface had funnelled people into Option 2 style code instead of Option 1, it actually ran much slower and they abandoned it. Modern compilers are still smart enough, though, that if it can work out what you're doing - do four adds in roughly the same place, say - it'll try to reorder the instructions so they were already side-by-side, and so on. In many cases it'll probably even out-perform because it saw stuff you didn't, and switching to 64-bit probably breaks a few less things.

Now for the hedge - this started as an off-the-cuff comment. I've not profiled either codebase at either precision, I'm not even sure how you'd test them side by side. Don't trust anyone who claims to be certain when they don't have the profile data to back it up.

So yeah, Regel, I hope that answered your question. dsmart, I hope I've not walked into some quibble about your precise definition of "coding standard". Jools, I hope I didn't arm anyone. Frontier, you're only fanatics in a good way, mostly. :)

Thanks Ben. That's an absolutely fascinating reply and I appreciate you going into that level of detail.

It also appears I can't "rep" your comment as I've repped you too much already :)
 
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Yes. Pretend.

One week after its being showed, it has silently been adjusted one week into the future. If they can't estimate time that close, then they're just pretending and the whole thing just demonstrates their inherent untrustworthiness and incompetence as far as any kind of scheduling goes — doubly so when they just flat-out replace the old version with a new one as if to pretend that this was what was said all along.

Funnily enough, doing it properly is not rocket science, and they should have 5+ years worth of adjustment data by now. Instead, they pretend, to fool people like you.

How has it been adjusted? There is no actual delay. The "new" schedule is just cropped. Look at the "2.6 start day" at the bottom right.
Besides you gotta have release dates to be delayed. Their internal schedule has targets.

I doubt you ever made anything remotely close to a video-game in your life and act like you know it all when in fact there's nothing to show for it. I like to call it the smart syndrome. Just big walls of fluffy words no actual evidence of knowledge. Waste of time so welcomed to my ignore list.
 
Or just glare dumbfoundedly at all of Chris Roberts' missed dates. All of them. He hasn't hit a date since Freelancer. That is the most telling evidence of incompetence, and yet you somehow still have "faith."

You need to check your "dumbfoundedly" "facts". You missed them (2.0) , again. Nice hyperbole anyway, won't change a thing. You can name any developer any game and it will have delays. The more open/vocal you are about your deadlines the more visible they are, simple. Waste of time- Ignored.
 
1.
No Mate. Sorry but I have serious Doubts that most of the People which keep Filling my Ignore List. Are Backers of this Game.
And if they are they should demand a Refund and get Lost. Cause the only thing I see from them is Negativity.

2.
Well you can Laugh at it by Phrasing it like that.
But the Question if an Object in your Game World which People Fly around and can Land and Walk upon. Should Rotate or be Static. IS an very Importand Point to your Game. Because having Players move Independently on an already moving Object on top on an Online Server over Internet Connection. Is an very hefty Issue.
Most of the current Engines have alot of Trouble with Placing Moving Objects upon other Moving Objects.
Its alot of Work to do this stuff. And while for an Spacecraft in Full Flight you can Forgive some Rumbling cause you can say. its a Craft moving at high Speed.
But for a Planet if you slide around or rumble about this would be an fat downturn.

Most Games up to this Day. Use a Transition which makes a Player entering a Vehicle. A Part of this Vehicle whose actual Position does not move except for some Preset Positions on this Craft.


The Games you Refer to might not think about this.
But given the Videos I see from them. They are setting a far lower Standard to begin with. Rodina in its General Idea doesnt seem to care much about Realism or Physics. Its an Rough Simulation to make things work. Albeit they look pretty Absurd.
Infinity Battlescape Pays way more Attention here. But is also using highly Simplified stuff here.

I cannot tell from the Video if they are using a Static System or went ahead using an Dynamic System. But its Fairly Obvious that their Alphas are way behind what Star Citizen Delivered so Far.



So. Sorry. But Seriously.
You guys aint Discussing anything here Really.
You guys are Trashtalking Star Citizen cracking half true Jokes and Provocations about its Founder.

If you dont like the Game dont bother with it.
Why do you spend so much time in this Topic downtalking a Game ?

There is only 2 possible answers. And one is more sad than the other.

1. Being that you simply got nothing better to do with your Life.
2. Being that you Hate this Game and for whatever reason want to hurt it somehow.



Imagine People would sit here. Making these Posts that you call an Discussion. About YOU.
I bet if I were to Talk like this and call it an Discussion of you guys. I would be Banned within a matter of Minutes.

What you guys doing aint an Discussion. And this aint Frustration either. Its Hatred. A Deep one on that.
Maybe that was born out of Frustration about whatever SC did to you by not Delivering on Time. But its clearly Hatred by now.

+1

We reached 135 millions btw!

eWDhVTb.png


And the big Anniversary Sale is coming to an end with a bang (on the wallets)! [big grin]

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/...617-Intergalactic-Aerospace-Expo-Grand-Finale

[video=youtube;_WTvS6nSSvQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WTvS6nSSvQ&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=hkog5JYib7E-6[/video]
 

dsmart

Banned
Pretend? Planning is estimates that ofc change! Show me a game in development and I'll show you missed dates, you don't need to go too far, just look at Elite Development.

He was making a point. Clearly you missed it.

hint: the point had to do with the fact that B looks nothing like A; while A was pure rubbish for starters
 
Well, it would take a miracle for them all to get delivered, so I'm guessing there's some correlation.

Interestingly enough I watched a video where CR used the phrase "buying concept ships" about donations. I wonder if there's any guarantee that a ship purchase will lead to a usable in game ship.
 
My opinion is that there has been some progress, but not that much.
I still do not like the flight model (and anxiously await the 2.6 changes)
PU is "meh" for me, it's OK, has some OK bits - again, awaiting 2.6 improvements
I do not like the new hangar module, having to walk around my ship and look at bits of it in order to change a weapon etc - I find a bit crap, the flaky-ness of the whole <<use>> interface, which is glitchy as hell, is frikkin annoying, I preferred the holotable thing, and I thought that was rubbish too. However, the newer interfaces supposedly coming after 2.6, look a bit more like it (normal old fashoned screens where you pick things like on a web page) - I know a bit about applications and UX (user experience), what's been shown as coming, looks like the way forward. It's been slated a bit here as "spacebook" and a few other names - but to me, I'm looking forward to seeing that in-game, and by in-game, I mean something I can download and play - not a tech-demo video.

The optimisations for loading times is something CIG should have been working on progressively anyway, you'd expect very early builds to lack optimisation (anyone remember the endless spinning Sidewinder of ED Alpha 3? :D)


Interfaces being the absolutely lowest Priority for Alphas is not exactly new either tough.
I mean have you checked Games like Naval Action etc ?
They pretty much have no Game Interface lol.
The Interface looks like a Dos Window because they simply set some makeshift triggers for the player to work with which dont even tell ya what your doing :p

Compared to that. Star Citizen is Genius on its Interface.

Now for doing things yourself. Well I guess thats more of an Taste thing.
I actually like the Idea that if I want to do something on my Ship I actually have to Walk there.
I do think some stuff needs to have a Button in the Cockpit like it would likely have in Reality as well.
But other stuff requiring you to actually walk up to it. Is somehow making it more enticing to me.



And yes. And thats what they are doing.
They have constantly improved the Codes here to cut Load Times shorter and Improve Performance.
I noticed this alot because I could hardly start the thing at start. And once I loaded it lagged like hell.
So each bit they did here was really really welcome to me.

But thats just what I said. You hardly notice this. Because each small backround patch it loads maybe half a Second Faster. And over the Year its like Loading Time has been Halfed but nobody notices because its only standing obscured as optimization etc in the patchnotes and people never noticed it just assuming they got used to the long load time or whatever.
 
Compared to that. Star Citizen is Genius on its Interface.
No. It is just a thoroughly simplistic game that doesn't need the interface of a complex strategic combat simulation.

The built-in CryEngine interaction prompt covers all needs, and it's not “genius” to fulfil such a simple need by using what's already in the engine. The only complex UI/UX the “game” has on offer are the in-flight controls, and they are notoriously ill-conceived and over-complicated for what it all tries to — never mind needs to — accomplish.

Conversely, trying to boil down a strategy game to the simple UI of an FPS would not be particularly genius either. Every time it is attempted, the gameplay suffers severely from it because the game is simply no longer controllable at a reasonable pace or level of efficiency.
 
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Mu77ley

Volunteer Moderator
The optimisations for loading times is something CIG should have been working on progressively anyway, you'd expect very early builds to lack optimisation (anyone remember the endless spinning Sidewinder of ED Alpha 3? :D)

At least we had pyskokow to entertain us when none of us could atually play for a few days due to that issue.

[video=youtube;poyGkMbIsvI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poyGkMbIsvI[/video]
 
At least we had pyskokow to entertain us when none of us could atually play for a few days due to that issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poyGkMbIsvI

Yes, brilliant! And, it was fixed in under a week. :D

- - - Updated - - -

Interfaces being the absolutely lowest Priority for Alphas is not exactly new either tough.
I mean have you checked Games like Naval Action etc ?
They pretty much have no Game Interface lol.
The Interface looks like a Dos Window because they simply set some makeshift triggers for the player to work with which dont even tell ya what your doing :p

Compared to that. Star Citizen is Genius on its Interface.

Now for doing things yourself. Well I guess thats more of an Taste thing.
I actually like the Idea that if I want to do something on my Ship I actually have to Walk there.
I do think some stuff needs to have a Button in the Cockpit like it would likely have in Reality as well.
But other stuff requiring you to actually walk up to it. Is somehow making it more enticing to me.



And yes. And thats what they are doing.
They have constantly improved the Codes here to cut Load Times shorter and Improve Performance.
I noticed this alot because I could hardly start the thing at start. And once I loaded it lagged like hell.
So each bit they did here was really really welcome to me.

But thats just what I said. You hardly notice this. Because each small backround patch it loads maybe half a Second Faster. And over the Year its like Loading Time has been Halfed but nobody notices because its only standing obscured as optimization etc in the patchnotes and people never noticed it just assuming they got used to the long load time or whatever.

Like I said, I don't like it, and I will continue to dislike it until it improves. There is no argument that can change my point of view on that - only what is delivered for me to try out.
 

Er, how, exactly, does this benefit the backers? It doesn't. The only thing the constant influx of cash guarantees is that there'll be even more videos online.

Money should be made, ideally, by such a ludicrous thing as, say, selling a finished product. THAT would guarantee lots of cash--provided, of course, that the game lives up to the hype.

As it is, there is NOTHING to be happy about. Snowball schemes typically demand that the readies keep rollin' in.

Mind you, I'm not saying that this is what it is, only that the strategy is the same.
 
For (1) vs (3), I actually have no idea what your definition of a "64 bit sized scene" is, I can't understand how it's not the same as (3), but you keep not defining it. Your use of terminology is frequently non-standard, this might be why you keep accusing me of obfuscating when I'm trying to be as clear as possible.

I tried asking the same thing (among others) that I did not see explained in any of his missives and he ignored my post.
I do mostly mobile games/apps as an occupation and I while I don't consider myself at all to be of untold programming skillz, I cannot understand what he really means. I put it on me not being old/experienced enough - so I asked him to elaborate technically.
 
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