General / Off-Topic We may need to rethink Colonia

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Cmdr Nemo

Cmdr Nemo
I;ve been suspended for having a sharp tounge in the past and perhaps I'll be again with this comment. BUT; In the current world where one isn't allowed to win nor loose and everyone gets a participation award. "SAND BOX" games should be the only ones "SNOW FLAKES" if there gonna play a video game, should. Providing of course, one has ever really stepped outside their house and observed the real world.
 

Noogillim

Noogillim
Not really sure if you sat down with a Thargoid or a Guardian that they'd really understand your point of view, as they'd probably see you as lunch.
 

Goobertech

G
Debated even replying.

I appreciate the OP's view and applaud the time they put into their post. I'm sure there is a forum that would be an appropriate place for this, but I don't think the exploration forums is it.

Elite Dangerous, and this forum, are one of the few sanctuaries I have free from politics. It's a refuge where I can explore the galaxy, read what other commanders are doing and seeing their beautiful screen shots. Discussions of real world astronomy, astrophysics and gravitational forces are what I come here for. It's a mix of a simulated galaxy built to give us, as close as can be done atm, a real galaxy to explore. For many, as I don't believe for a second I'm alone on this, this is a place where all ARE created equal. Race, gender, religion, sexual orientation or any other division causing difference is cast aside for a mutual love of space and Elite Dangerous. Can we PLEASE, for the love of all that is FSD boosted, keep this forum free of real world issues?
 

Olivia Vespera

Olivia Vespera
Hey folks I've just read all the comments you've all had. Thank you all for sharing your input. I know there was a lot to read and a lot to make sense of. It's as foreign and unfamiliar to me as it is to most of you.
I wanted to chime in and clarify a few things. My formatting and wording may have not been perfect.

First of I'd like to thank the mods for giving this a go. Thank you Ian Phillips for keeping this open. I will post your comment at the top of my OP.
I may not fully succeed but I will do my best to keep my replies civil and stay away from as many minefields as I can.
I understand that it may not be fitted for the exploration forum,If there is a better forum to talk to the exploration community about our impact in the game as an exploration community, I would probably much prefer it.

I ask that those participating in this thread to try your best to not use words like snowflake, idiot or social justice warrior/SJW when talking about each other. Or any other derogatory term. This falls under "being polite".

Macedonica said:
Thanks for posting the links to the article - they make fascinating reading and articulate the deep connection between language and its underlying myths and narratives we sometimes elide or ignore. Personally, I think it would be interesting to have a debate around these issues and their historicity if only to reinvigorate the language (and subtexts) used unconsciously in science fiction and also this game. While some may argue that ED is set far in the future where these issues are perhaps no longer relevant, we as gamers are not. We are here and now and as such caught up in these issues and sometimes perpetuating them without even realising it.
Click to expand...
I think Macedonica said it better than I could and answers some of your questions regarding why it matters.

Okay so there are three types of comments I see. Ones that bring up fundamental issues with what was said in the articles. These can be political So i'll do my best to be succinct.
Then there are comments that I believe require clarification on what was said. in the articles.

Fundamental issues:
  • Being vocal about offensive issues breeds division in society and we need to see ourselves as one human race.
    • I think a lot of people would love to be seen as just human but can't because society at large does not. I wish it were that simply be considered just human but I don't believe we are at that stage.
    • In my opinion, pointing out issues with the system that marginalises them where they exist isn't inherently bad. It's necessary.
  • Real world politics should be left in the real world and has no place in our game
    • I've seen this point brought up before. I would point folks who have this view to watch this Extra Credits Video:
      [video=youtube;ryz_lA3Dn4c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryz_lA3Dn4c[/video]
    • Basically, all media, games included since the dawn of time has and have always been political because the creators can't remove themselves from the games they make.
  • If people find the name, "Colonia" offensive or damaging to them, they shouldn't play this game.
    • It is my belief we as an elite dangerous community should endeavour to be more inclusive as possible rather that exclusive.
    • I'm hoping that that's something we can all fundamentally agree upon even if we don't agree how to go about it. I'm not saying it isn't difficult, but it is a worthwhile endeavour.
  • No one has said anything about the word Colonia damaging them. Why is there an issue now?
    • that's usually due to minority voices having been stifled in the past. It's always been an issue to those affected by colonization, it's just that people are now starting to listen and write about them.
      According to Qohen:
      Qohen Leth said:
      The issue of the name 'Colonia' had been raised by several (myself included) even before it became the de facto name of the system.

      Although the biggest issue imho is that it's dreadfully uninspired.
      Click to expand...
      So it's inaccurate to say it's only just become an issue. It has always been an issue, except more people are speaking up about it.
Clarification Required:

  • Are you/the article saying Space colonisation is inherently bad because it's had a bad history(for some at least) on Earth
    • No one has an issue with humans going to another planet and staying there is inherently bad. We're saying using Colonization to refer to that is. Because it supplants the historical definition and affects of Colonization on a whole lot of people.
    • it doesn't matter if "No sentient beings or indigenous people's were living out in the the Eol Prou nebula when it was colonized." because it's about the erasure of our history. Colonization had terrible effects still felt today by the indigenous population.
  • Are you/ the article saying that the word Colonization should be removed from the english language entirely?
    • The articles are not saying that the words should be excised from the english language. It's saying that they should only be used in their original context of exploitation and subjugation because to do otherwise would overwrite that history... and thus we'd learn nothing from it by reinventing it. That' to me, we shouldn't use it in the context of space exploration.
  • The word Colonization shouldn't be a problem in the context of space exploration if there were no indigenous inhabitants to begin with and thus Colonia is fine.
    • The articles are not saying that the words should be excised from the english language. It's saying that they should only be used in their original context of exploitation and subjugation because to do otherwise would overwrite that history... and thus we'd learn nothing from it by reinventing it. That' to me, we shouldn't use it in the context of space exploration.
    • Personally... I don't know the answer. Thanks for letting me know your thoughts on it!
  • But either way, we're still going to say we're colonising a planet or colonising space. We're going out there to live there. Colony is a good word. Just because it's been dirtied by others
    • We are still going to build settlements in space and other planets. I want to see that future.
    • Within the space community IRL, I think there are more and more folks who do want to change the terminology. The article I linked was an interview with Lucianne Walkowicz. She's not a nobody. She's an astronomer who studied the ethics of Mars exploration as the Chair of Astrobiology at the U.S. Library of Congress.
    • Recently I watched a video with my idol, Neil Degrasse Tyson who took a moment to highlight these concerns.
      [video=youtube;2p6D6RjUJEg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p6D6RjUJEg[/video]
      Neil Degrasse Tyson said:
      "My talk title was advertised as 'Colonizing Space' and that word, 'Colonization', carries such baggage over the past couple of centuries that I think it's time to just call them space settlements. In fact I think it's even a little more accurate."
      Click to expand...
      If Neil Degrasse Tyson is recognising it, to me it tells me in the astronomical community have thought about it and felt this way and thus the term is likely to change before we begin settling other planets. Colonization has been a word with negative connotation for centuries. It's not a recent thing... So do we follow suit with the rest of the IRL space community or cling to what could be outdated soon?

Erimus Kamzel said:
Amen.

I'm interested to know what FD were going to call it as they already had a name set aside, but decided to go with Colonia since it had become part of the players' lexicon pretty quickly. And the only reason it became Colonia is because it was added to the GMP as a temporarily placeholder name in lieu of EOL PROU RS-T D3-94 as we waited for FD to name it! Catch-22!

It could easily have been called the Pagus Nebula or the Diostar Nebula as they were the other names suggested at the same time.
Click to expand...
That would be interesting to know!

If there's any points I've missed, or accidentally strawmanned, please let me know!
Please remember the central premise of this thread is to talk about whether we feel words like Colonization used in the context of space and thus in elite: dangerous (with regards to Colonia) leads to harm to people affected by western colonization. by erasing those narratives and rebranding colonialism as this positive thing when it's actually pretty bad.

The aim is to discuss whether we made a mistake in naming Colonia, due to being unaware of the problematic nature of the second bubble's name at the time and what we as an exploration community should do about it if anything.
 
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Arnoldo

A
As you say, there are plenty of other threads. For me, I've hit the 'ignore thread' button and have asked the mods to move the thread out of the Exploration sub-forum - I don't come here to hear your world views, your philosophy, your take on history or your interpretation on how I can/cannot/should/should not use the English language (or those of your 'idols').
 

Pyrotiger

Pyrotiger
Where do I start with this.

Umm.

Could go on about Chomsky and transformational grammer and all that - but I'll give that a miss.

Could say that many millions of people have drowned in water over time, including relatives, so the term 'water world' should be changed - but naahh.

Instead I'll look personally. I come from an area that has been colonised - a particularly notorious case - and because of that it has caused a lot of bloodshed afterwards, for hundreds of years. Of course, you could argue that colonisation brought some benefits, too. This would prove to be a very divisive argument. The use of the 'c' word would not be.

I certainly am not offended by the use of the word colonisation in a computer game, and I do not know anyone who would even think to be offended by the correct use of the word, even if they had been particularly affected or had a very strong opinion. Perhaps I should be offended? Am I wrong not to be offended? By being offended or not, I am not going to make the dead walk again, and I'm not going to undo the events of 31 years ago, for instance, which I remember all too well on this day. Sunday offends me more than Colonialism. All those offended, please raise hands? Nah, thought not.

All words are contaminated. At root. Sorry, radix. Let's throw them out and start again...then do it all over again, infinite contamination because the words aren't the problem, it's the behaviour that we perpetuate and always will, because that's people.

It seems like an exercise in intellectualism from where I am coming from. Please you intellectuals out there, can we not solve the problems in the world such as starving, overheating etc etc first before we sort out a phrase used correctly in a relatively obscure computer game. This is how you can be useful. In other words - perspective: get a grip?

Now if you'll excuse me, I must empty my colon intestines.
 

Cdr Voorheez

Cdr Voorheez
Personally think that Politically correct nonsense has no place here. In my opinion it should be moved to another thread entirely.

Look what Disney did to the SW Franchise through overly zealous PC hand wringing 'my right is to be offended so i'm offended by your accidental unintended offence' farcisism.

This says it all:

https://youtu.be/_7LbjtvXm0M

Leave it out of Exploration related discussion. it is just not relevant or welcomed.
 
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Pirin

Pirin
Olivia Vespera said:
.....


  • No one has said anything about the word Colonia damaging them. Why is there an issue now?
    • that's usually due to minority voices having been stifled in the past. It's always been an issue to those affected by colonization, it's just that people are now starting to listen and write about them.
      According to Qohen:
      So it's inaccurate to say it's only just become an issue. It has always been an issue, except more people are speaking up about it.

....
Click to expand...

Well, technically i should be one of these "minority voices". My country was under foreign rule for some frakking 500 years! And unlike many other cases were foreign empires come and build cities, hospitals, universities and bring Civilization in general, in our case the invaders intentionally destroyed everything what existed, so there is nothing to remind the local population they had a state in the past. Therefore i have all the reasons to be sensitive on the issue. But this is not my point of view. All that is just history, things of the past. It doesnt give me the right to feel offended by some random word or any other equally stupid thing. And if there is someone who really feels offended by the word Colonia - i have a very simple advice to them: get over it!

With this type of thinking we are bringing our civilization to a standstill and even decline, since nowdays is virtually impossible to say or do anything without somebody feeling offended. The Age of Reason is being gradually replaced by the new Dark Age where the political correctness is the new mandatory state religion. This is wrong!
 

GonzTheMalificent

GonzTheMalificent
Cdr Voorheez said:
Personally think that Politically correct nonsense has no place here. In my opinion it should be moved to another thread entirely.

Look what Disney did to the SW Franchise through overly zealous PC hand wringing 'my right is to be offended so i'm offended by your accidental unintended offence' farcisism.

This says it all:

https://youtu.be/_7LbjtvXm0M
Click to expand...

Totally agree. This is a GAME. There are no Thargoids really. but if there were, they wouldn't sit down and discuss "Colonisation" or "Colonization". They'd suck your brains out......
 
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