General / Off-Topic We may need to rethink Colonia

[znôrt]

Origin

Colore (Latin - cultivate) -> Colonus (Latin - settler/farmer) -> Colonia (Latin - settlement/farm) -> Colony (late Middle English)

Late Middle English (denoting a settlement formed mainly of retired soldiers, acting as a garrison in newly conquered territory in the Roman Empire): from Latin colonia ‘settlement, farm’, from colonus ‘settler, farmer’, from colere ‘cultivate’.

Thus, technically, Colonia means settlement/farm. Seems about right to me, if rather uninspired.

a plain farmer was an 'agricultor', a 'colonus' was an 'agricultor' sent to stolen land. 'colonia' were roman settlements on conquered territory, not in rome. which is exactly op's point. colonization is essentially an invasive and violent process.

(why op thinks we should hypothetically have more right over some distant planetary systems than colonizers abroad have had over the lands they stole and spoiled is beyond me, thus the term is still apt)

good morning!

 

[amigacooke]

Thank you Tiger Baboy and Pirin for sharing your perspective as folks who come from a culture that was affected by Colonization

I come from a culture that was affected by Colonization, living in deepest Surrey. The south of what is now England was 'settled' by hunter gathers, then colonised by farmers, then colonised by the Romans, then the Angles, Saxons and Jutes and then by the Norsemen in the shape of the Normans.

 

[Olivia Vespera]

And even in Star Trek they refer to human colonies

Star Trek was made in 1966. It was a product of its time. What's presented in the article

OP lacks a grasp on the etymology of the word "colony" (unlike Zeeman above)

Oh I know what Colony means. I do love my etymology. I think it's more so than you may not understand my reasoning for my thoughts on the word Colony.

And because of that,I will not stop calling Germany that name just because Hitler did too. Which is essentially what OP requests."

is a strawman because that's not essentially what I'm saying.

I'd like to know why you think Knowing the etymology of Colony would make me think differently. There's some constructive discussion surrounding that.

So here's what I think to get the ball rolling:

I don't know. The reason why I presented it is to hear your thoughts.

Is Colonia as a word distinct enough from Colony and Colonization and the such that it avoids spreading bad narratives? Only the people affected by Colonization can answer that, some might say.

I think a helpful bit in the article said the following:

What about terms like “manned” or “frontier?”
Yes, I do find “frontier” to be problematic. The implication is not exactly the same for somewhere like space as it is for here, but it similarly draws on the same kinds of narratives that are all based around European settlement. And often, if the word “frontier” comes up, it’s not wrong—until someone spells out the narrative of those brave explorers who went West in the early Americas.

using the logic that Lucianne Walkowicz used:
As long as Colonia isn't used to evoke the narrative of Colonization or the Colonies, it should be fine.

But I haven't made up my mind. I was hoping to hear more indepth thought on this by others around me.

 

[Olivia Vespera]

I like Olivia but this is painfully stupid.

Yes, ‘colony’ and its derivitives have some nasty baggage. But abandoning any word that has had bad things done in its name will eviscerate language.

It’s also cowardly. Words aren’t malign - they can’t be, they have no intentions. People can be malign. What’s achieved by simply giving up words to people who do bad things?

But all these “it’s a game, it’s not real life” comments are also stupid. Who cares? Basic standards of decency still apply - just because it’s a video game doesn’t mean racism is fine, for example. The fact is that renaming Colonia would be equally stupid if it was a real-life scenario.

Yes, ‘colonisation’ has some baggage. But rather than feebly retreat from it and force ourselves to awkwardly use some less useful word, how about we clean it up? Let’s make ‘colonialism’ associated with good things, not bad.

Because "cleaning it up" risks erasing and forgetting our collective past mistakes.
The articles are not saying abandon the word. They're saying use it for the context that they refer to.
Using it in a different context, in a positive context, risks folks associating it with the positive context and forgetting the negative contexts they originally were intended to refer to.

The question i'd ask with that understanding and the etymology that Zeeman presented is "Is Colonia far-removed enough from "colony" and its derivatives?

Personally I ask the question: Why can't we attach two different meaning to words. there are plenty of english words that have two or more different meanings. That's one of the things not answered in the articles I read. (and i'd love to hear from Lucianne Walkowicz) (I've not seen anyone on this thread ask that)

 

[Olivia Vespera]

I do wonder if people keep renaming things to distance themselves from some kind of collective guilt they feel for acts have certainly been pretty awful and in the case of colonisation, been literally devastating for indigenous peoples. It's not going to change the past though and changing the name is unlikely to make the slightest difference to any activities undertaken as part of any future colonisation. The kind of people who might think this kind of thing is a worthwhile idea and may change their behaviour because of it aren't the kind of people who are going to land on distant shores and start smashing the natives heads in with sticks or whatever they did in the first place.

Some kinds of social reprogramming through the use of different language are probably quite effective and beneficial but given that as far as we know there are no indigenous anything else anywhere apart from on Earth, it seems like a bit of a waste of time at the moment to start changing the way we refer to colonising other worlds. It's a bridge we can cross another day. Maybe.

They're not saying rename things because we feel guilty for it but using the words for the bad things they refer to.

Naming something for a dark history of our time but doing so because we're evoking the myth of this frontierland where we can have a new beginning. (And that was really the narrative we pushed with Colonia, this new place for explorers to escape the bubble) by associating it Colonization, we risk forgetting and erasing that part of our history.

Yes there isn't any indigenous life but... it doesn't matter because it's the narrative that we employ upon it that they're saying in. Let me share the full quote.

The language we use automatically frames how we envision the things we talk about. So, with space exploration, we have to consider how we are using that language, and what it carries from the history of exploration on Earth. Even if words like “colonization” have a different context off-world, on somewhere like Mars, it’s still not OK to use those narratives, because it erases the history of colonization here on our own planet. There’s this dual effect where it both frames our future and, in some sense, edits the past.Even if words like “colonization” have a different context off-world, on somewhere like Mars, it’s still not OK to use those narratives, because it erases the history of colonization here on our own planet. There’s this dual effect where it both frames our future and, in some sense, edits the past."

the key condition there is even if words like so and so have a different context off-world. This quote doesn't make any distinction between whether there's already indigenous life on that planet or not. Or whether there's an atmosphere or not. They are saying this in a manner that includes those possibilities. in any context off-world.

Now I assumed you've read this quote and decided you don't agree with it. So let's try moving in that direction because I reckon that's where the constructive discussion is.

Why does that need to be indigenous life on an off-world planet before we start evoking and misuisng narratives that help erase our collective past of Colonization?

 

[Olivia Vespera]

We live in a world where people are routinely killed, driven from their homes or imprisoned for their sexuality, skin color, religion the list is unfortunately endless. Horrible stuff going on all the time pretty much everywhere.

Worry about the terminology when we've fixed the actual practical issues and nobodies dying for this rubbish.

In this case you want a word removed from a video game because its an ancient version of colony (roman I think) which you disapprove of even though in the game world you get summarily executed for taking too long to park your spaceship whilst hauling drugs and slaves. Seems a bit of a silly thing to focus on given what else is happening.

I've never hauled slaves in game, as I very strongly disapprove and just don't want to touch it. It's only a game though and I only ever apply that rule to myself.

No one is saying we don't have other problems. But this is kinda a what aboutism.

It's a fallacy to say we should fix other problems before we fix this.

They are both problems. And they both should be fixed.

Just because we're highlighting problematic terminology doesn't mean we don't care about other issues in the world.
The reason I focused on Colonia is because it was a player submitted and approved name. We were the ones who affected that change and we hold responsibility for it, especially if it plays a part in erasing the history of Colonization.
We are from the 21st century, not the 34th so the things we create matter.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Space colonisation is only bad if some intelligent lifeform(s) already live there and don't want visitors.

If it's empty, it's fine.

 

[lokvette]

I come from a culture that was affected by Colonization, living in deepest Surrey. The south of what is now England was 'settled' by hunter gathers, then colonised by farmers, then colonised by the Romans, then the Angles, Saxons and Jutes and then by the Norsemen in the shape of the Normans.

As do I, my distant relatives came over with William the Conqueror, and I was born in a city founded by the Vikings, only then to move to a town founded by the Saxons and lastly to one by the Romans.

just how far back do we go to purge our so called guilt, I wasn't there nor was anyone I know many bad things were done in years past the British empire was not built nor run on a bed of roses, nor was anyone else's.

But as an English man or a Brit, I have no guilt for my country men's actions, if I did as my farthers side of the family was Irish I would hate my own nation and people. I may not think what they did was right but what was done is done, and worrying about a name given to a area off space in a computer game makes my mind boggle.

 

[67Mistakenot]

I can see what the OP is aiming at, but looking from the perspective of our own lifetimes and our own lived experiences, what was OK 30 years ago is not OK today; what is OK today will not be OK in 30 years time. The mores of 3304 are utterly unknowable.

I'm afraid I can't bring myself to care that Colonia is called Colonia, I've never associated the word with colonialism - this is just building a home on an empty, dusty, uninhabited rock, to me it just seems like over thinking it to even worry about it.

What I deeply resent though is bringing current politics into the place we go to escape from those politics and the associated cares and worries. This is where many of us come to escape the 'real' world and I'm not at all happy with people who feel the need to drag their view of the world in here with them.

 

[amigacooke]

We were the ones who affected that change and we hold responsibility for it, especially if it plays a part in erasing the history of Colonization.

Do you have any evidence that it is erasing the history of colonization?

I am on my way to Colonia, but it has no connotation to me other than a location far from the bubble which was caused to be by the missjump of a spaceship. It has zero affect on my knowledge of colonisation, which is too complex a subject to be summed up in a single word.

 

[Olivia Vespera]

We live in a world where people are routinely killed, driven from their homes or imprisoned for their sexuality, skin color, religion the list is unfortunately endless. Horrible stuff going on all the time pretty much everywhere.

Worry about the terminology when we've fixed the actual practical issues and nobodies dying for this rubbish.

In this case you want a word removed from a video game because its an ancient version of colony (roman I think) which you disapprove of even though in the game world you get summarily executed for taking too long to park your spaceship whilst hauling drugs and slaves. Seems a bit of a silly thing to focus on given what else is happening.

I've never hauled slaves in game, as I very strongly disapprove and just don't want to touch it. It's only a game though and I only ever apply that rule to myself.

I think the fundamental misapprehension the OP has taken from the article is that the RL piece discusses the issues and impact of humans setting up shop on another planet.

Mars for example has an atmosphere, and as such has a potential to have indigenous life (probably microbial, and more likely had life but no more). The issue in real life is the impact of an alien species (humans) invading this totally inhuman environment.

Trying to take this item, which is written based on the modern history of humanity, and then apply it to a Science fiction game, is in my opinion disingenuous. So far many responders have highlighted that the environment of Colonia is set in the vacuum of space, or on airless worlds. The game has no indigenous life forms in this area for humans to contaminate, exterminate, exploit or enslave.

I feel like those people haven't read the articles I posted. Like seriously. If a person doesn't read the links in the OP then, you're missing out on information that we're discussing. They are relevant informationt ot his.
As I've said in the previous posts:

Even if words like “colonization” have a different context off-world, on somewhere like Mars, it’s still not OK to use those narratives, because it erases the history of colonization here on our own planet. There’s this dual effect where it both frames our future and, in some sense, edits the past.

When Lucianne Walkowicz says it's still not okay to use those narratives, She's doesn't say, only on bodies with indigenous life. She doesn't say, only on bodies with an atmosphere. She generalized and says "Off-world"... yes yes, she did give an example of Mars (because that's related to her studies) but that's just the example towards the most likely candidate for future settlement. Not just off-world at a body with an atmosphere and indigenous life.
So fretting over ther origin of the word Colonia based on 20th viewpoint is as much use as a chocolate teapot.

[Example of in-game atrocities that are part of the lore of the universe of Elite: Dangerous

I dont see you bemoaning this construct - if your concerns over using the wrong descriptors is so key, you may want to survey the ‘occupied’ planets closer to Sol and then berate FDev for creating a game with such inequalities and wrong doings.

As said in the most recent previous comments:
The game world is the game world it's how it's set, We as the exploration community are people who live in the 21st century. And interact with players in the 21st century. And because of that, there are rules of play that govern how we play in a 21st century way.
things like don't discriminate based of sexual orientation or gender etc. Because Colonia was created by this 21st century group of fine explorers, we take responsibility for what we put out there that other 21st century folks are seeing.

Colonia isn't just a place in the game world. It's a place that we the community named based on 21st ideas and knowledge. Unlike Frontier who can hide behind the lore of the game world, respectfully. We as a community can take better custodianship over how what we create affects other people. We already do for the most obvious and understandable words (Galaxy Mapping Project would probably not accept a slur as a name for a POI) And I applaud that we do that. But we can definitely always do better as we learn more about each other. Now we're learning about this and the first reactions i get from a lot of folks is defensiveness and general vitriol because it feels like i'm talking about taking away something that means a lot to a lot of people. I get that and it's why I'm not mad no matter how many times people in this thread are mean to me. Who I've had pleasant and camaraderie experiences with. people will always have this gut reaction, but it's important to still discuss and talk about these things, especially because they're so hard and frustrating. Because we all want to make the exploration community a better place for everyone involved.

 

[ilo]

They are both problems. And they both should be fixed.

Actually, Olivia, I disagree one of them is actually a problem. 'holding responsilibity' for not erasing history because a name of a location in a game is a too harsh approach.

 

[racer1]

Sounds like political correctness gone mad to me.

But the way Colonia and its name evolved in game, is not something that we should change for out of game reasons.

 

[Olivia Vespera]

As do I, my distant relatives came over with William the Conqueror, and I was born in a city founded by the Vikings, only then to move to a town founded by the Saxons and lastly to one by the Romans.

just how far back do we go to purge our so called guilt, I wasn't there nor was anyone I know many bad things were done in years past the British empire was not built nor run on a bed of roses, nor was anyone else's.

But as an English man or a Brit, I have no guilt for my country men's actions, if I did as my farthers side of the family was Irish I would hate my own nation and people. I may not think what they did was right but what was done is done, and worrying about a name given to a area off space in a computer game makes my mind boggle.

You personally may not or no longer be affected by Norman, Viking Saxon, and Roman Colonization but there are still people all over the world who are affected by Western Colonization because of the immediacy of it and because people are still suffering because of its legacy.

Do you have any evidence that it is erasing the history of colonization?

I mean you do understand the logic presented right? What Lucianne said. If you're looking for examples for where we have cleaned" and thus erased problematic history,
just have a google of those terms.

https://sites.temple.edu/womenushis...and-historical-narratives-by-chuck-sylvester/
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=e...hat+it+is+erasing+the+history+of+colonization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_negationism

You're not going to find specific evidence that directly shows that calling it Colonia will change people's perception, because or how gradual and minute it is. Maybe there is a comprehensive study out there, but I've not found it. (Maybe you will) You have to look at our world's long history of negationism and rewriting the past to sanitise it.

Space colonisation is only bad if some intelligent lifeform(s) already live there and don't want visitors.


If it's empty, it's fine.

Hi there i have replied to this here: what are your thoughts?

I can see what the OP is aiming at, but looking from the perspective of our own lifetimes and our own lived experiences, what was OK 30 years ago is not OK today; what is OK today will not be OK in 30 years time. The mores of 3304 are utterly unknowable.

I'm afraid I can't bring myself to care that Colonia is called Colonia, I've never associated the word with colonialism - this is just building a home on an empty, dusty, uninhabited rock, to me it just seems like over thinking it to even worry about it.

What I deeply resent though is bringing current politics into the place we go to escape from those politics and the associated cares and worries. This is where many of us come to escape the 'real' world and I'm not at all happy with people who feel the need to drag their view of the world in here with them.

I appreciate your sentiment. thank you. I agree the mores of 3303 are unknowable. But what we bring to the game is pretty 21st century. And Politics is rife within the game. As Ian Doncaster said:

Quite a lot of Galnet references - more or less subtly - real-world politics. I do find it quite amusing that - while the rule against discussions of real-world politics is absolutely correct - it makes it very hard to chat about Galnet politics because you can't mention the obvious analogues.

and as the extra credits video I linked said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryz_lA3Dn4c&t=195s , "That is not possible. All media is political."

Actually, Olivia, I disagree one of them is actually a problem. 'holding responsilibity' for not erasing history because a name of a location in a game is a too harsh approach.

if you don't think it's a problem, why did you say "Worry about the terminology when we've fixed the actual practical issues and nobodies dying for this rubbish."?

I may not have understood you and I'd like to know what I missed.

in anycase:
I'm not saying remove all problematic names in the game. I'm only speaking about the things that we the community had a hand in building. Colonia one of our greatest achievements in terms of affecting the game world is one of those things.
Now likely changing the name is a little too late. But we can also put more consideration to these concerns, collectively as a community in the things we named. We're not going to be perfect, but that we try and continue to try and acknowledge when issues are pointed out is a good step forward.

 

[ilo]

Spoiler

if you don't think it's a problem, why did you say "Worry about the terminology when we've fixed the actual practical issues and nobodies dying for this rubbish."?

I did not say that, someone else did

 

[Olivia Vespera]

Spoiler

I did not say that, someone else did

Ah XD

 

[Toumal]

"I will not stop calling Germany that name just because Hitler did too. Which is essentially what OP requests."

is a strawman because that's not essentially what I'm saying.

It is not a strawman, it is an analogy. And you cannot deny that it fits. Both say the same thing:
"Let's not use word X because it has some historical baggage"

Now if you say that "germany" is not the same word as "colonia", that is true, but that is the nature of an analogy. You may of course bring forward arguments as to why you think the analogy is lacking, but you can't simply invalidate it by assigning it the false moniker of strawman.

I'd like to know why you think Knowing the etymology of Colony would make me think differently.

Your original post lacked any and all reference to the actual etymology, and at the very least made the impression of where the word comes from. The articles you linked to do a similar thing. So if you're aware, that's good, it just didn't come across in your post.

So here's what I think to get the ball rolling:
I don't know. The reason why I presented it is to hear your thoughts.

Let me quote your own post from the very top:

"I think it may be possible that the name we chose for the second bubble is problematic because by doing so, we as a community helped "[erase] the history of colonization here on our own planet."

I disagree. The name is not problematic at all. Bacteria colonize areas in which they are able to thrive. Nobody is complaining about this yet, though I can imagine a future where even that use of the term suddenly is not acceptable anymore. Unfortunately we live in a time where superficial "issues" are being used to gloss over the real ones. Refusing to use neologisms and made-up "gender neutral" designations in writing (a real issue in german writing right now!) are sexist, but paying women the same wage for the same job is still being completely ignored.

Also, as many have pointed out, Elite Dangerous contains many words and topics that are a problem in real life:

War.
Murder.
Slavery.
Plagues.

ED is a game, and using these terms as well as having these elements are not disrespectful to real victims of such things. Elite Dangerous does not "normalize slavery". It does not normalize murder. And it does not normalize or "cheapen" the atrocities committed under the early European expansionist activities. It's simply a game.

If you want to make a difference, you need to do that in real life, not ask for words to be changed in a computer game. If you want to lessen the pain in the world, and deprive warmongers of their funds, here are a few things you can do:

Stop buying gasoline, oil and natural gas.
Stop driving a car (or at least, don't buy a new one every X years)
Produce less thrash
Use local products
Stop buying gadgets from China
Don't buy a new smartphone every 2-3 years
Become a volunteer in emergency or social service
etc.

Now I can tell you right now that even though the above are not actually debatable, people will immediately raise their neck hair and counterargue, because that's only natural. The only alternative to attacking these facts is to change your ways.

And we all have a lot of problems changing our way of life. Calling for words to be changed is easy. But when the time comes to actually change our behavior, we are suddenly very creative with the excuses and find hundreds of reasons not to. We lie to ourselves and others to make that lie go down smoothly: Coal will be clean, all that trash will surely be recycled by someone somewhere somehow, diesel fumes surely can't be that unhealthy, iraq, syria and similar conflicts are certainly not about oil, electric cars surely can't be cleaner than ICE cars, and Tesla is a big fraud and can't build cars.

The fact of the matter is: People with lots of power forcibly take things from people with less power. Instead of getting worked up about terms and designations, we should collectively shun people and corporations who do these deplorable things as part of their business plan. They would love nothing more than us getting distracted over names and words.

One may say, "why not do both" but I point to the distraction aspect again. We're getting worked up about designations that, by themselves, are completely valid and applicable.

 

[lokvette]

You personally may not or no longer be affected by Norman, Viking Saxon, and Roman Colonization but there are still people all over the world who are affected by Western Colonization because of the immediacy of it and because people are still suffering because of its legacy.

Yet I still feel no guilt, and I'm still at a loss to why the name of an fictional part of space in a computer game needs a rethink. Just because the root form of its name might have ties with an unsavory course taken by people's long dead.

 

[Sir.Tj]

Ok Folk,

I'm going to temp close the thread for review.

I'm also going to alert the FD Community team to decide if it should continue to be closed or reopened.

Seems to be sneaking into IRL Politics which as we all know is against the forum rules.

Thanks all.