The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Monk]

Keeping true to my word, I got into some multi-crew action tonight with Mr. Nowak on 2.5 Alpha Star Citizen.

Over all, it was a nice and fun experience.

I got into the PU, a little before meeting up and had some fun practicing decoupled piloting...not as touchy as FAoff but fun enough to cruise around in and take in the views. Went to a comm array, shot down some NPC pirates who were in far superior ships to my Mustang Beta...they kinda just sat there and would scoot around a bit. Clearly still some work needed there and was super noticeable to me as I'd spent some time in my Vulture bounty hunting the night before.

He logged on to the discord and we started our coordination. I was at Port Olisar he was at GrimHex (naughty boy!). This part was actually pretty interesting to me. Using positions of the star, Crusader and craters on Yela, we coordinated a clandestine meeting, hidden among the asteroids. Once we linked up, Mr. Nowak had spotted some strange lights in the distance. I was convinced it was a nebula in the sky box but as we approached we say a fairly large wreck. He found a laser sniper rifle and I picked up some booze (my first cash earnings!). I abandoned my Aurora and joined him in his Freelancer.

A little touch and go at first as I got stuck in the hull and then clipped through the front windshield. Ooops! Made my way back to the ship and, this time, made sure I was strapped in to the turret. As we flew to the pirate base I could see get larger until it filled my monitor. Winding down into the docking area Mr. Nowak made a clean touchdown. What followed was a tour of the station. We picked up some newer players who were following us around, just goofing around. As we made our way deeper I saw an opening and a drop into the asteroid. I thought that jumping off the platform would lead to zero-g like on Port Olisar...NOPE...fell several hundred feet to my death. One of our hanger-ons did exactly as I did and jumped after me...that was a pretty funny moment.

Still being a 'good guy' I respawned back at Port Olisar. Apparently the easiest way to get back was to shut down a comm array and become a 'bad guy'. So, I picked one at random and brought it down, made my way back to GrimHex. When I arrived I spotted a our friend from earlier stealing Mr. Nowak's Freelancer, lulz. Got back in and continued the tour, I bought a laser rifle and we teabagged the burnout NPC tending the clothing store. We made our way into the zero-g section of the station which leads out to space.

At this point, I had to head out and pick up my wife from school so called it quits.

I found the pirate base to be an interesting space...not quite as visually stunning as I'd hoped but it has its moments and the atmosphere of it is spot on. It is clear a lot of attention to detail had been used in putting this together. On the technical end, my fps were struggling hard. Never above 25fps, averaging about 19. This had a pretty strong dampening effect on the visual quality that I was used to seeing in Arena Commander. Yela felt big this time around, still not realistic but for the purposes of a game, it was convincing enough. It seemed like a lot people were around, all having a good time.

If they fix the fps issues, I'll definitely be playing more. I expressed my concerns about Sq42, which he understands and we commiserated over the blunder that was Star Marine. Thanks to Mr. Nowak for showing me around. I definitely have a more positive view of the general population of backers who are clearly not the crazed cultists they are sometimes made out to be. There are a number of bad apples, of course.

Anyway, there is a long way to go yet. And my criticism of the project will not relent, though I think I'll go forward with a bit more understanding for the people who just really want to see this game become a reality.

 

[Osmanthus]

He Outlined an Extensive Case on Reddit.
If you Read this "suspricious" support Ticket. You actually notice that he outlined no case at all.
He pretty much citated his right to ask for a refund and asked for a refund.


I apologize if I just repeated something you said.
Reason I just vanished for like 20 pages is because I got Sick and Spend like 21 Hours a Day in Bed. The remaining Hours being out to see the Doctor.
So my entire Body feels heavy like hell and I got an headache due to having slept in 1-2 hour intervalls for over 20 hours...


As for the Case of this being a thing. See for yourself. Especially for Amazon this Practice made it into the News some time ago. So its easy to Source.
https://www.techwalls.com/amazon-ban-return-too-many-items/
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2...returning-faulty-goods-blocked-credit-balance
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/if...rchases-heres-your-cautionary-tale-2016-03-21



And well.
You say this is not an Extreme case of Continual Buying.
But an Automatic System often is not really Smart.

To begin with with most Services. Not all of your Money is Profit.
There is Fees to handling as well as the actual worth of what you get in Return and if you Refund the cost of actually handling things to be Refunded etc.

In case of RSI. If you Pledge 80 Bucks. You likely make around 60-70 Bucks available for them after Handling Fees.
Now here is the Problem. If you then Pledge 500 more Bucks in 5-6 different Items.
All of which you Refund. You already cause the Handling Fees. Meaning out of that 500 Bucks maybe 450 Bucks actually get into the Budged.
But if you now Refund. They not only have to Refund the Full 500 Bucks meaning a Net Loss of 50 Bucks.
But even have to bother with another Set of Handling Fees and some Worker actually getting this Money back to you.
In short. At the end of the Day. This Number of Pledges he then Refunded again. Each of which coming with Handling Fees and then requiring Support to get it back.
Likely Pushed his Account into an Negative Area.
He has given the Company about 70 Bucks Profit to work with.
But around 100 Bucks of Fees and Cost.


For Amazon this is much more Strict of course.
As they only get like 10 Bucks Profit from a 50 Bucks Sale.
Having just 10% of your Items Refunded. Might actually put you into negative Balance. Meaning you are Costing Amazon more than you Gain them.
This is especially true because once Sold Items cannot just get Sold again.

Thanks for the source, and I hope you get better.

I stand by my earlier assertion: that this is a foolish, hamfisted implementation of that policy. I'll also add that Amazon is hardly a good comparison since they deal with physical goods. Note that one guy had his Amazon account banned after THIRTY-SEVEN returns. This citizen's "crime" seems to be much, much less than that. Also, for all your explanations you ignore the fact that by refunding the rest of his account they actually end up losing more money.

Instead they could have set restrictions on his account to stop him from giving them more money, but I guess CIG isn't able to comprehend making it harder for people to give them money, so why should we expect them to do the competent thing?

No, Sunleader, your hypothesis is silly. It also has that wonderful aroma of implicitly blaming the customer for his travails.

 

[Tippis]

To begin with with most Services. Not all of your Money is Profit.
There is Fees to handling as well as the actual worth of what you get in Return and if you Refund the cost of actually handling things to be Refunded etc.

In case of RSI. If you Pledge 80 Bucks. You likely make around 60-70 Bucks available for them after Handling Fees.

What handling fees? This is not kickstarter (who still only take single-digit percentage fees in total); this is people transacting directly with RSI. Unless you have been flagged as the most unreliable and scammy operation ever, no processor will take 25% of your transaction — if you are, they simply don't do business with you.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

I am still somewhat wondering on what Platform this Exchange happened.
I checked an Older RSI Ticket I had. And it looks entirely Different from that Page.
I also checked for the CIG Site. But its not allowing Tickets like this.
Making me somewhat suspicious of this Screenshot.


As for the "All or Nothing" Approach.
That being honest makes little Sense.
It would pretty much mean that if you Pledged right at the Start. You could Buy some Cheap Ship and then get your Entire Account Refunded. Which would not make Sense as an Policy given it Increases Damage on the Company rather than having any Deterring Effect.

Its Possible that this Employee Indeed was Over Stressed and thus Messed Up. Which would to some degree make sense given that Customer Support especially after Big Events is usually Flooded and often in total Panic mode of Employees somehow trying to work through Support Requests in a 1 minute per Request fashion on Requests which often take 5 minutes just to even read.

The other Possibility in this case. Would be that the Company has an certain Criteria for Taste Testing Customers.
(Taste Testing Customers are Customers who Purchase alot of stuff. Just to then Refund it. In this case his actual Worth Pledge was 80 Bucks. Then he Spend over 500 Bucks just to have it Refunded.)
So due to the large difference between his actual Value as a Customer. And the stuff he Bought and then Refunded. He ended up in the Criteria and thus the Company wants to get rid of him. So they dont have to Refund him over and over due to him Buying stuff in an Hasted Fashion and then Refunding it short time later.
This is not an unusual practice to be honest.
If you for example make an Amazon Account. Buying something worth 50 Bucks.
And then a Month later Spend like 600 Bucks on 10 Different Items. All of which you then Refund at the end of the Month.
The Chances are that your Account will end up Suspended because to Amazon your an unreliable risky customer. Which will cost em more Money than you actually earn them.

You are absolutely right "THEY"are everywhere in case you might didn´t notice they even change some letters in Sandi´s come-back welcome support message...here is the evidence......

 

[Sunleader]

Thanks for the source, and I hope you get better.

I stand by my earlier assertion: that this is a foolish, hamfisted implementation of that policy. I'll also add that Amazon is hardly a good comparison since they deal with physical goods. Note that one guy had his Amazon account banned after THIRTY-SEVEN returns. This citizen's "crime" seems to be much, much less than that. Also, for all your explanations you ignore the fact that by refunding the rest of his account they actually end up losing more money.

Instead they could have set restrictions on his account to stop him from giving them more money, but I guess CIG isn't able to comprehend making it harder for people to give them money, so why should we expect them to do the competent thing?

No, Sunleader, your hypothesis is silly. It also has that wonderful aroma of implicitly blaming the customer for his travails.

1.
Thanks.

2.
Well its your right to stand by your Opinion. I am merely Providing you an Explanation.
And yes that Implementation is Silly. Which is all the more Reason why I find this Suspicious.

3.
For the Amazon thing. Well 37 Returns out of over 200 Purchases.
Compared to this Guy has Refunded 9 out of 10 Orders.
So of course as I said. Amazon due to Trading Physical Goods is more Strict.
But if you check the Difference. The guy on Amazon also had an Total Value which was far far beyond his Refunds.

The Question on this Policy is your Profit.
If only 10% of your Purchases Value are actual Profit. Then you might end up Suspended by Refunding 20% of your Orders.
In RSI Case he Refunded 90%
And as I said. Given normal Handling Fees. This might have very well ended up putting his Balance on the Company into the Reds.

Also. In this case an Suspension of the Account is not an Punishment or Reproach for this Action. Its an Safety Mechanism.
Because they Expect this Customer to Continue this Behavior thus costing them even more Money.
Hence they Settle anything they got Open and Drop the Customer.
In this case.
They lost 80 Bucks of Pedged Money in the Addition to the losses the Customer Caused.
But under the assumption that this Customer might Pull the same Stunt another 2 Times. They with this avoided losing another 100 or 200 Bucks he might have cost them.
Which again. Is Standart Practice in Business

4.
You cannot just Place Restrictions on a Single Customer about how much he is allowed to Buy from you.
By the Law the moment you allow a Customer to Enter your Shop he is to be treated equally with anyone else.
So he does actually have the Right to Buy stuff as much as he wants.
After all they are Based in the USA. So they cant do it like many Online MMOs do. And just treat Customers however they want due to nobody actually reaching them for a Lawsuit anyways.
They cannot just Say. Ok your Bad Customer. We simply Freeze your Account so you cannot Buy stuff that you might want Refunded later on.


5.
I am not Blaming the Customer lol.
I am merely telling you that this sort of System exists.
I for my Part Disagree with such an System entirely. After all if the Product you got is Faulty you got a Right for a Refund. And while I do agree that Abuse of Refunds should be Controlled and Punished in Extreme cases.
Systems like this which Ban you from the System based on a Proft/Cost Calculation. Rather than Checking if the Customer might simply have gotten the wrong stuff for real. Are clearly NOT something I would defend at any Point.
But just because I dont defend it doesnt mean I deny its Existence as an Possibility.

In this case however.
In his Reddit Post. He actually stated himself to be at fault. Having a Mental Disorder which caused him to buy way more stuff than he can afford.
Which in return caused Cost to the Company which had to Refund this Stuff then.
Interestingly he did not state this in the Support Ticket which might have resulted in a different Response.

 

[FuriousMeow]

<SNIP>

So you had the same experience everyone does each and every time they play. Sure there are some variances - what players you encounter, how many times you get ejected from the ship you are in, when your game client crashes, etc - but it's going to be the same outline, small variations which some disingenuously label as "emergent gameplay."

I'm glad you seemed to have had fun. It still isn't anything more than a vanilla CryEngine mod.

Let's face it, some people found a bike wheel rim and a stick tons of fun.

But SC is way, way, wayyyyy off development track and they are pulling a lot of deception to bring in more funds for some reason since it was totally fully funded for all features it promised at $65million. Now... now it is at best MVP. See, it's the deceit - the obfuscation, the... starts with L and rhymes with eyes.

 

[Monk]

So you had the same experience everyone does each and every time they play. Sure there are some variances - what players you encounter, how many times you get ejected from the ship you are in, when your game client crashes, etc - but it's going to be the same outline, small variations which some disingenuously label as "emergent gameplay."

I'm glad you seemed to have had fun. It still isn't anything more than a vanilla CryEngine mod.

Let's face it, some people found a bike wheel rim and a stick tons of fun.

I'm not saying there are hours upon hours of entertainment there...but the brief time I spent I was reminded of the fun I had on the Discovery RP server for Freelancer. The people and the setting are important.

Anyway, I see a new CG has popped up for building a 'road' to Jaques...time to get in on that.

 

[Barking_Mad]

And your sources are very precise rght???Do I need to remind you that when I rise my concerns almost 3 years ago about the problematic Crytek netcode and overall bad multi player posibilities you claimed back then that this is going to be easy fix and CIG experts going to solved that in a matter of weeks not month´s...

Well it´s even better if I quote some of your wisdom words Mr. Nowak/quote:"That would be a slight issue if AC would be the only game section being developed. Which is not the case. Also as many many times said before go watch the DFM footage from 2013 and compare it to the one now the Level they have gotten to the amount of netcode work and build work they did was nothing like they planned last year. Initial release of AC was on cryengine mp code. They now have their own netcode running all across the globe and Hosting 450k People."-You claimed this back in 29.08.2014....very impresive indeed....well let´s go back in reality and move forward some 2+ years later we can see almost no improvements at all.....

*hat tip*

 

[milligna]

Interesting account, Monk!

I do think Sunleader may be right in a one sense: that this customer service person was stressed, I mean they did do as requested initially and just refund what was requested -- but THEN suddenly something changed, perhaps a certain customer service legend and best salesperson since she was a little girl added a vindictive cherry to the top of the refund sundae and did the usual "LEAVERS! You're with us or against us!" move. I doubt the lower level CS types have the authority to give backers their cash on their own.

 

[Zetta]

That refund appeal is certainly a bit strange, compounded by the CCU's that the owner applied etc. It makes me wonder if the CS initially thought it was a much more straightforward affair and then got into a bit of a pickle trying to revert everything back to pre-whale status.

Not sure about the compulsive buying disorder seeing he's managed to restrain himself since his initial $80 payment, it seems strange that it would surface now. I can't help but feel it seems more likely that he simply got caught up in the moment and egged on via his postings on the subreddit regarding CCUs and the like, but that's solely my opinion.

 

[Toumal]

Oh Monk, the idea of SC is amazing, no doubt about it! And we're seeing glimpses of that. I still hope it comes out as a solid game.

When someone claims that 2.x is already the best game ever made however, then we have problems. And of course the whole grey market and cig corporate stuff.

The biggest issue for me is that the scope is unrealistic and so far CIG have proven that they bit off more than they can chew. And looking at Bugsmashers they are not exactly experts at certain key technologies. That plus shifting dev targets equal lots of wasted effort.

 

[Mr.Nowak]

And your sources are very precise rght???Do I need to remind you that when I rise my concerns almost 3 years ago about the problematic Crytek netcode and overall bad multi player posibilities you claimed back then that this is going to be easy fix and CIG experts going to solved that in a matter of weeks not month´s...

Well it´s even better if I quote some of your wisdom words Mr. Nowak/quote:"That would be a slight issue if AC would be the only game section being developed. Which is not the case. Also as many many times said before go watch the DFM footage from 2013 and compare it to the one now the Level they have gotten to the amount of netcode work and build work they did was nothing like they planned last year. Initial release of AC was on cryengine mp code. They now have their own netcode running all across the globe and Hosting 450k People."-You claimed this back in 29.08.2014....very impresive indeed....well let´s go back in reality and move forward some 2+ years later we can see almost no improvements at all.....

First off I didn't claim it would be a matter of weeks not months for a total fix of the entire engine netcode to support what they have now. It was explicitly referring to what they had back then and what they were developing back then. It was their first global AC server that could run instances. So those accomplishments are null? Since when doesn't development work and time count here. Many people spent hundreds if not thousands of hours of work time to make that code that you dismiss easily.

It's really hard to understand that kind of hard work and it's easy to dismiss it if you have not done it yourself. That's why I wish everybody was more respectful to what any gamedev is doing. This also includes CIG since many people are working their asses off but the usual hate-fest here is discrediting the actual work people put in.

Also yes they are working towards a global netcode supporting their online population? You know which is what you do when you announce things like that? They have been talking about it for a while now? Does this sound entirely unreasonable?

Additionally you are saying that the netcode on the development version of the 2013 AC is worse than now? They have an improved netcode compared to that. Now they are improving that further to accommodate the needs of 3.0 and beyond.

Play AC now and tell me that the Netcode is bad. It isn't. For that map size the FPS and network is very good. What CIG has issues with right now is the netcode on a large world. Which they are working on. Yes I know a game development company working on improving their product might sound wrong for many people who have so much hate for a single company.

But it is that way. I think when someone says that hey I have people telling me this this will happen and shows you nothing that person has the credibility of nothing. While on the other hand you have actual people that I had the chance to meet and that you can observe for yourself too if you want to and meet them who work very very hard on this game. Nobody here is claiming everything goes perfectly fine in game development as it never does.

What I am trying to get people back to is the middle ground. That CIG is working hard to make their dream come true no matter what hateful people here that have been disappointed are saying. No 330 dudes are not sitting around their offices having evil laughs that they didn't release this game early or that they intentionally screwed up Star Marine.

The reality is far more simpler than most are imagining with their wild dreams. This is the most ambitious space game project. Equal to that ambition is it's delays. No sane human ever went to build this for a single reason. It's         hard to do because of the complexities. Also many people backed the game for the same reason because nobody dared to do it. So the first one got the support.

 

[Monk]

Oh Monk, the idea of SC is amazing, no doubt about it! And we're seeing glimpses of that. I still hope it comes out as a solid game.

When someone claims that 2.x is already the best game ever made however, then we have problems. And of course the whole grey market and cig corporate stuff.

The biggest issue for me is that the scope is unrealistic and so far CIG have proven that they bit off more than they can chew. And looking at Bugsmashers they are not exactly experts at certain key technologies. That plus shifting dev targets equal lots of wasted effort.

Indeed...hoping MVP really means MVP, since a truly iterative development model would be appropriate given their funding model and shifting objectives.

 

[hiciacit]

*Ahem* This might answer that question, maybe? Perhaps? I dunno. This is CIG/RSI we're talking about here.

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/XLCOfyi.jpg

This company is insane, <nope> I want to know what happened after that though, is there a sequel?

 

[kwik]

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitize...ire_account_and_refunded_my/d7onyxy?context=3

so yeah, none of that correspondence was fake. just a bit of a misunderstanding it would seem. makes the thread rather interesting though, given some of the "fan theories".

 

[Jezzah]

Ha. That support letter was funny.

 

[ianw]

Ha. That support letter was funny.

At least we're past the denial Fake! phase now - presumably the justifications/excuses are being worked on as we speak..

 

[xyphic]

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitize...ire_account_and_refunded_my/d7onyxy?context=3

so yeah, none of that correspondence was fake. just a bit of a misunderstanding it would seem. makes the thread rather interesting though, given some of the "fan theories".

So an implicit confirmation that the guilt trip letter is real then. What with that and snowflake-gate, they might want to take a look at their customer service policies.

 

[Stigbob]

They don't need to adapt their customer service, the people they predominantly advertise at (and therefore want as customers) not only defend them no matter what they do but condemn people harshly for raising legitimate points.

Look on it as a way of ensuring they only have a compliant easily influenced fan-base who will never ask awkward questions like "where's the bloody game".

Trouble makers who deliberately and maliciously remember what they claimed in preceding years and repeat it now are not wanted or required and will probably refund themselves out, keeping the fan-base pure and unquestioning.

In all the way or banished, no half measures.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

First off I didn't claim it would be a matter of weeks not months for a total fix of the entire engine netcode to support what they have now. It was explicitly referring to what they had back then and what they were developing back then. It was their first global AC server that could run instances. So those accomplishments are null? Since when doesn't development work and time count here. Many people spent hundreds if not thousands of hours of work time to make that code that you dismiss easily.

It's really hard to understand that kind of hard work and it's easy to dismiss it if you have not done it yourself. That's why I wish everybody was more respectful to what any gamedev is doing. This also includes CIG since many people are working their asses off but the usual hate-fest here is discrediting the actual work people put in.

Also yes they are working towards a global netcode supporting their online population? You know which is what you do when you announce things like that? They have been talking about it for a while now? Does this sound entirely unreasonable?

Additionally you are saying that the netcode on the development version of the 2013 AC is worse than now? They have an improved netcode compared to that. Now they are improving that further to accommodate the needs of 3.0 and beyond.

Play AC now and tell me that the Netcode is bad. It isn't. For that map size the FPS and network is very good. What CIG has issues with right now is the netcode on a large world. Which they are working on. Yes I know a game development company working on improving their product might sound wrong for many people who have so much hate for a single company.

But it is that way. I think when someone says that hey I have people telling me this this will happen and shows you nothing that person has the credibility of nothing. While on the other hand you have actual people that I had the chance to meet and that you can observe for yourself too if you want to and meet them who work very very hard on this game. Nobody here is claiming everything goes perfectly fine in game development as it never does.

What I am trying to get people back to is the middle ground. That CIG is working hard to make their dream come true no matter what hateful people here that have been disappointed are saying. No 330 dudes are not sitting around their offices having evil laughs that they didn't release this game early or that they intentionally screwed up Star Marine.

The reality is far more simpler than most are imagining with their wild dreams. This is the most ambitious space game project. Equal to that ambition is it's delays. No sane human ever went to build this for a single reason. It's         hard to do because of the complexities. Also many people backed the game for the same reason because nobody dared to do it. So the first one got the support.

I never said that current netcode is worst than original CE vanilla,I said that we can not see almost any improvements at all.....but what do I know right???I simply do not understand game development and as you said CIG is runing for years now their own netcode running all across the globe and Hosting 450k People...or millions now right?Again you keep saying how AC working smooth thx to the CIG magical netcode???PLS. show me 1 video with mp battle in AC where we have at least 30 players that works smooth&stable?Heck...go ahead and show me with 20 pls?......You probably going to find some with 16 players...heh that´s what I am keep saying all CE games are "famous"as bad in MP and if we look Crysis as example we will find out that 16 is their magical number as well and even then they are never been stable&smooth....Again we can find some other games that are build in CE like Entropia Universe that support many players per instance but don´t forget that net-data-transfer in that game is entairly different and some "lag" is tolerated as this game is more like point&click and don´t require immediate-fast&big FPS netcode style....That´s the reason why you can see 40+ people in Arcorp and you can´t have even 16 when you need to do some Fast based action....So I will cut the chase,I don´t think that is impossible to have many more players in SC I just keep saying that this task is extremely difficult and requires time....and again time...and some more time....until future tech&magic Germans(IF EVER) finaly alow us that pleasure we will be sentenced to play this utter garbage that we have atm.....