Modes Obligatory "Merge solo, open, private groups" thread

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

This is wrong.

Frontier introduced the player factions in colonia because they wanted to see players fighting each other through the BGS. It's the reason I was very much opposed to introducing player factions there. Before that, there were groups forming and cooperating organically. Hell, I used to be based in Colonia until they came up with the gawdawful idea of Colonia PMFs.

Re read what you just said. They introduced them ziggy. Before they were introduced. The BGS wasnt made for that. I just literally explained this.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

They dont even have to limit them to one mode, Ive also said this from the beginning. They could drop solo and private down to 25% of what youd normally influence a system for. All materials, rewards, all that stuff would stay the same. Just the system influences you impact while in the other modes. Open you get a full 100% for taking part in it.

And I have made arguments why that's a bad idea.

They could still leave all that stuff connected. All anyone is asking for is recognizing risk and reward here. This would make PVP meaningful, people would understand what they are getting into. Look, how many threads pop up with someone yelling they got griefed in open?

Very few, considering how many players are playing. Go look for the last 5 threads complaining about griefing.

They rules arent different there. There is no indication that open is a more dangerous place. It most certainly is. Look at mobius 80,000 stong!

They goal here is to curb in game toxicity, give meaning to pvp. Show risk and reward for your activities. And all that would merge perfectly with squadrons. Group gameplay, and hell you wouldnt have to change a damn thing. And powerplay activity would shoot through the roof!

Do you think taking away a feature from 2 modes from the players who are enjoying that would not increase toxicity?

And powerplay activity shooting through the roof is an assumption and wishful thinking. There's no way you have the statistics to support that claim.

Re read what you just said. They introduced them ziggy. Before they were introduced. The BGS wasnt made for that. I just literally explained this.

"in Colonia"

From the moment they introduced PMFs, they introduced adversarial play through PvE.

As intended.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Robert. Look at me when I say this.

One Click Transactions are specifically made for team work, solo and Co-Op play. All Transactions in powerplay are value based and not transaction based when it comes to cargo. Ship killing can be a little different though.

Anyways, The BGS was not made for Adversarial Gameplay. Ziggy is right.

But people are using the BGS something that was made for Co/op and single player gameplay. Against each other.

Dont think for one second this stuff wont go unbalanced. They've made changes to the BGS before when it came to player vs player stuff. And they will continue to do so based off of player vs player activities.

But it wasnt created for PVP. Not by a long shot.

So here we are. Now major player groups are using it against each other. Multiplayer features and guilds and ships for groups to use. If they are advocating group play. For sure they will balance group play too?

Otherwise its just an extension of powerplay. Which is also imbalanced and not working properly.

I dont want to see this stuff fall short. Because of a few solo players, or people that dont get involved with this stuff at all. Throw a fit because something changed.

And they weren't even a part of it.

Just see no room for peoples complaints here. Doesn't make any sense.

Interesting take on the BGS - given that Factions (of both kinds) are part of the BGS - and all players in all modes affect Factions. To expect a system where Faction influence can be changed by players actions *not* to be used as a form of PvP is rather naive.

Frontier have known that not all players are content with "their" Faction being affected from Solo / Private Groups for years now - no change has been made.

Frontier have known that not all players are content with PowerPlay being affected from Solo / Private Groups for years now - no change has been made.

Frontier don't publish how many players there are, nor which modes they play in - so to suggest that "a few Solo players" are in some way holding back the game is an assumption, on both counts.

There's an assumption that Squadron play will lead to Faction territorial control - however there's nothing concrete about that, so far, in the FFF.

As ever, we'll see, in time, what Frontier choose to do.

 

[Bigmaec]

How about game enjoyment? People play in open because they think it's more fun.

Isn't fun the best incentive for deciding how to play a game?

Sure, that's why I do it occasionally if I want more thrill than in mobius.
Or if I want to shoot other things then mentally AIs.

But to be honest no one in his right mind should take the risk of open from a pure risk/reward view.
I never fly my 43 million rebuy corvette in open, because why should I? I have way more friends in mobius then in open,
and the toxicity of some(!) people in open and the retardedness of some C&P rules (gank festivals in the capital of the pilots federation)
makes me decide pro mobius most of the times, because again, why shouldn't I?

I can always repeat when I was a noob playing Elite I was baffled that I can do community goals in solo. I got laughed at by a friend
who told me "why are you playing in open, you can do it in solo". Really, I didn't understand it. Now I read all the things about "all modes are equal" but then when I was new, I couldn't grasp that idea, and still can't 100%.

And the whole idea of acting against other players in solo/pg is absurd from my point of view. Not that I do powerplay/bgs except for pp equipment.
But why should one be able to do something against players unopposable by other players? I think this is fundamentally flawed.
(To be fair, I did participate in Operation IDA in PG, so technically I influenced the BGS in a safe space for a while...)

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

And I have made arguments why that's a bad idea.


Very few, considering how many players are playing. Go look for the last 5 threads complaining about griefing.


Do you think taking away a feature from 2 modes from the players who are enjoying that would not increase toxicity?

And powerplay activity shooting through the roof is an assumption and wishful thinking. There's no way you have the statistics to support that claim.


"in Colonia"

From the moment they introduced PMFs, they introduced adversarial play through PvE.

As intended.

I mean, theres about 5 + years of Hotel California that continues to roll on because people wanted Powerplay Open Only. Its only spoke about everytime powerplay is mentioned anywhere. But hey, guess those statistics you were involved in, almost every thread that comes up about it. Nah you yourself showing up to fight against them is not enough of a statistic.

They were introduced in a small area in colonia, and have existed for quite a while in the bubble too. Before Colonia.

But when the game was created, the original BGS mechanics had nothing to do with PMF's. On top of that we see how they roll out content. They lay a foundation and make changes when needed. This year "beyond" Is about all the catching up core gameplay mechanics. Im pretty sure the BGS is pretty much Core if there ever is one. So is Risk and Reward.

Risk and Reward is a part of every game created. Remember super mario brothers? Remember that mushroom that fell to opening hole every time. Are you gonna rush to risk it?

Well, im telling ya bud. One day there will be adjustments to this stuff. I dunno when or how. But my bet is on beyond. It would be for the betterment of the game.

Not just for PVPers, but those guys that dont understand what open is about. There would be defining gameplay loops built around the player. The personal progression, exploring, credit making and personal goals would all stay the same.

If some dumb ol monkey like me can see it. So can they. And so can you.

Nobody loses here.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I mean, theres about 5 + years of Hotel California that continues to roll on because people wanted Powerplay Open Only.

There's 5+ years of debate yes, however the Hotel opened about the time that players realised that other players would be able to play the game without them while still affecting the single shared galaxy state - which pre-dates the release of PowerPlay by a couple of years (i.e. well before we knew anything about PowerPlay).

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

There's 5+ years of debate yes, however the Hotel opened about the time that players realised that other players would be able to play the game without them while still affecting the single shared galaxy state - which pre-dates the release of PowerPlay by a couple of years (i.e. well before we knew anything about PowerPlay).

Yep. Agreed.

Hows that powerplay doin right now?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Yep. Agreed.

Hows that powerplay doin right now?

Still implemented for all players, not just those in Open - as all those who bought the game bought access to it.

.... and the *most* that Sandro briefly mused about was a bonus for participation in Open - not a mode lock.

.... and rather clearly not even a mode bonus for interaction with the BGS.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Sure, that's why I do it occasionally if I want more thrill than in mobius.
Or if I want to shoot other things then mentally AIs.

But to be honest no one in his right mind should take the risk of open from a pure risk/reward view.

True. Players should risk Open because they enjoy Open. If you add rewards to a mode, players will play that mode against their preference. And then you get another Engineers mechanic. A mechanic players would rather not engage in, but do because of the reward of playing engineers.

I never fly my 43 million rebuy corvette in open, because why should I? I have way more friends in mobius then in open,
and the toxicity of some(!) people in open and the retardedness of some C&P rules (gank festivals in the capital of the pilots federation)
makes me decide pro mobius most of the times, because again, why shouldn't I?

Good question. Why shouldn't you?

I can always repeat I when I was a noob playing Elite I was baffled that I can do community goals in solo. I got laughed at by a friend
who told me "why are you playing in open, you can do it in solo". Really, I didn't understand it. Now I read all the things about "all modes are equal" but then when I was new, I couldn't grasp that idea, and still can't 100%.

I read players who enjoy having to evade other players in a community goal in Open. Enjoyment.

All modes are equal means, you decide which mode to play. You. Not Frontier, you. When Frontier goes: you get X% more rewards in Open, then Frontier decides where you want to play. Don't want to miss out on that sweet X% do you?

And the whole idea of acting against other players in solo/pg is absurd from my point of view. Not that I do powerplay/bgs except for pp equipment.
But why should one be able to do something against players unopposable by other players? I think this is fundamentally flawed.
(To be fair, I did participate in Operation IDA in PG, so technically I influenced the BGS in a safe space for a while...)

Influence changes aren't unstoppable. When someone influences your faction, you have to option to counter that by countering that influence by your own actions.

There's 5+ years of debate yes

Which only means there isn't a consensus. It doesn't mean the concept is flawed.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Well, im telling ya bud..

Never mind.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Still implemented for all players, not just those in Open - as all those who bought the game bought access to it.

.... and the *most* that Sandro briefly mused about was a bonus for participation in Open - not a mode lock.

.... and rather clearly not even a mode bonus for interaction with the BGS.

And would you say powerplay was a success based on the majority of the player base for its intended use? Or no? Can you Directly PVP someone thats in solo from open play?

Does the words, "we had to fudge the crime response in powerplay so you wouldnt have the cops joining in on all the PVP. Thats what powerplay was meant to be for, Consensual PVP". Not choosing a mode over one another. Powerplay and its intended use.

You can not achieve its intended use. If someone is playing in solo effecting the multiplayer part of the game.

So again, did powerplay become this great success everyone is ranting and raving about? Or have people asked for change just to enjoy a part of the game that was geared to be an outlet for meaningful PVP.

But nope, yall threw a fit. And then turn around and complain about griefers in the game lol. I mean collectively, not everyone does this. But it does indeed happen.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Which only means there isn't a consensus. It doesn't mean the concept is flawed.

Indeed.

For a "problem" to be addressed, first it must be agreed that it is, indeed, a problem.

That the shared galaxy state is a problem for some players is patently obvious - just as it is obvious that other players consider it to be a core design feature of the game.

 

[Robert Maynard]

And would you say powerplay was a success based on the majority of the player base for its intended use? Or no? Can you Directly PVP someone thats in solo from open play?

Does the words, "we had to fudge the crime response in powerplay so you wouldnt have the cops joining in on all the PVP. Thats what powerplay was meant to be for, Consensual PVP". Not choosing a mode over one another. Powerplay and its intended use.

You can not achieve its intended use. If someone is playing in solo effecting the multiplayer part of the game.

So again, did powerplay become this great success everyone is ranting and raving about? Or have people asked for change just to enjoy a part of the game that was geared to be an outlet for meaningful PVP.

But nope, yall threw a fit. And then turn around and complain about griefers in the game lol. I mean collectively, not everyone does this. But it does indeed happen.

If PvP was the sole intended use for PowerPlay then why did Frontier implement it in all three game modes?

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

If PvP was the sole intended use for PowerPlay then why did Frontier implement it in all three game modes?

Thats a damn good question. Has anyone asked them?

Answer my questions.

nd would you say powerplay was a success based on the majority of the player base for its intended use? Or no? Can you Directly PVP someone thats in solo from open play?

Does the words, "we had to fudge the crime response in powerplay so you wouldnt have the cops joining in on all the PVP. Thats what powerplay was meant to be for, Consensual PVP".

Mean anything at all? Or we just gonna let that go.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

If PvP was the sole intended use for PowerPlay then why did Frontier implement it in all three game modes?

I know Sir!

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

I know Sir!

PvP was not the sole intended use for Powerplay!

I'm Dutch.

About the never mind. You're telling. One way information traffic. You're not discussing. That requires two ways. So ... never mind. I wasn't referring to politeness.

Im telling you because of experience ziggy. Balancing multiplayer game play. All that stuff. Games only go unbalanced for so long.

Its in your guys' favor who chose to use mobius or solo or anything else besides open. Especially against the people you would be attacking if you were in that position.

Like the dude that lived in mobius, BigMac(sorry dude I cant do those special characters). Literally just explained the imbalance to both of you guys a few posts ago. And you immediately responded to the same robot responses you always do.

Just like you did to OP in this thread and me when I first showed up.

You guys arent involved in it to begin with.

People have had enough of this stuff man.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I know Sir!

PvP was not the sole intended use for Powerplay!

That's my take too - while PowerPlay offers opportunities for players to engage in consensual PvP (which it obviously does in the multi-player modes) it does not require players to play in a multi-player mode to participate.

From the man himself from his AMA on PowerPlay, April'15: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/140032-David-Braben-Powerplay-AMA

For fun

That said, it could be worth thinking about reducing the impact that solo & group players have on the political simulation.

Unlike community goals, Powerplay is a swinging balance - ie solo players are also balancing solo players.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

That's my take too - while PowerPlay offers opportunities for players to engage in consensual PvP (which it obviously does in the multi-player modes) it does not require players to play in a multi-player mode to participate.

From the man himself from his AMA on PowerPlay, April'15: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/140032-David-Braben-Powerplay-AMA

Indeed. And was powerplay a success? Its okay for our l0rd and Savior David Braben to be wrong every once in a while.

I mean its pretty obvious what the issues are here.

Part of being success is failing. You keep trying and you do something a little different each time until it works.

Thats called Gitting Gud my friends.

 

[Robert Maynard]

People have had enough.

Some people have had enough - however not all players enjoy direct PvP (nor engage in it) - and Frontier designed a game where players can choose whether, or not, to play in a game mode where direct PvP is possible - each and every time they launch the game.

How large the subset of the player-base that has "had enough" is is not known. What is known is that every single player bought or backed a game with three game modes and a single shared galaxy state.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Im telling you because of experience ziggy.

That's my point and ironically we're back to: I'm right, you're wrong. Not based on the strength of your argument, but because "of experience".

And your portrayal of my argument:

And you immediately responded to the same robot responses you always do.

So I'll pass thank you very much. I'm happy to discuss this with people who are willing to discuss.