I don't have any observations to share on any of the recent discussion, it's mostly beyond my experience/knowledge. Sounds promising, though.

The past few days I have been retreading old ground, trying to take the Dark Wheel toast in a more literal, direct fashion. Like a series of directions/a map, even 'a door that is also a key' (in so much as the way forward is blocked by this riddle, 'unlock' it to proceed).

The Mother of Galaxies can still only be Casseiopeia for me - it's a bit prosaic, perhaps, but I recently read about he signal from a Cobra MkIII in Tionisla - the one about 'The Vain Queen rides a Giraffe that rembers her Daughters Hero'. I think that was related to the Formidine Rift business, but it's clearly describing Casseiopeia again.

"The Parents Grief, the Lovers woe"? I went over to see Marco Qwent today, Engineer up my Cobra MK IV's power plant - it really needs it with all the junk I've wedged into that ship - anyway, I saw he lives on the planet 'Lucifer'.

And then, it must be the Milton talk getting to me, I thought - couldn't Lucifer be the Parent's grief, the Lovers woe?

So I hit up the DSS, mapped the surface. 9 signals found.

8 Human.

1 Other.

I have never seen an 'other' before!

However, it only appeared when I was down on the surface - over the horizon from me, I locked it through the Nav panel - but when I took off again it vanished from HUD and Nav panel. So far re-mapping, re-logging, re-mappping haven't brought it back.

I searched online for more info, but all I could really find is that 'other' signals have turned up elsewhere (a sign I'm not on the rigt track? Probably), and that they seem to be prone to this vanishing behaviour.

So I don't think it's gonna turn out to be anything - but has anyone else ever seen an 'other' type surface signal?
Everything about Sirius is suspicious. Both Waypoint and Lucifer are interesting names. Not least when analysing Paradise lost.
The Sirius corporation has several inventions to their name, that would have benefited from a little knowledge of alien tech.

Sirius is also located firmly in the Down direction from Sol / earth.
 
Everything about Sirius is suspicious. Both Waypoint and Lucifer are interesting names. Not least when analysing Paradise lost.
Though one has to be slightly careful about analysing names inherited from FE2/FFE that way - they may have been incorporated into the puzzle, and they certainly had quite a bit of choice over which FE2/FFE systems and stations to inherit, but they potentially have slightly different standing to ones that first appeared in ED.
 
Flying around last night and decided to re-visit the gen ship Thetis.

I have 2 accounts. A PC archived account and my current PS5 account (PC is dead - console was a present). So I realised I had never gone to the Thetis on console…

So it’s an unexplored system on my second account; normal signal scan initiated and boom up it pops.

I recall all the faff we used to employ to find these things via number stations. And I just recalled Brookes dissatisfaction with the max range scanner and how easy it made everything.

I just hope if we find Raxxla it’s actually called Raxxla and not Quagarrs. Otherwise I think we’re likely to just ignore it along with all other things?

IMG_9665.jpeg
 
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Though one has to be slightly careful about analysing names inherited from FE2/FFE that way - they may have been incorporated into the puzzle, and they certainly had quite a bit of choice over which FE2/FFE systems and stations to inherit, but they potentially have slightly different standing to ones that first appeared in ED.
You could see it that way. There is also the opposite argument. Raxxla is an old mystery. Far older than the timeline of the games. If those that originally found Raxxla named planets or systems to act as a map or 'waypoints', it would be strange if those names only appears over the last 50 years.
 
You could see it that way. There is also the opposite argument. Raxxla is an old mystery. Far older than the timeline of the games. If those that originally found Raxxla named planets or systems to act as a map or 'waypoints', it would be strange if those names only appears over the last 50 years.
Sure - but well over 95% of the named systems in Elite Dangerous weren't in the older games at all (and conversely many of the non-catalogue systems in the older games aren't in Elite Dangerous), so their names can certainly be more than 50 years old in-universe.

Similarly a lot of the internals of the systems which are in common - even lore-significant or prominent ones - have been changed between FE2 and Elite Dangerous either partly or entirely.
 
Orion isn’t truly part of the text, it’s utilised only once to my memory in association to describe an on coming storm, because that constellation position in our sky used to be associated with inclement weather.

The Miltonian model, does not extend outside the bubble. To my knowledge.

There are indications - in my opinion - that might identify certain focal points ‘might’ align with certain exterior locations, but there are no direct relationships, only a visual alignment with a very low level of reliability. I could speculate these could have been part of some archeological narrative markers?

I would consider that the reference to “Legacy” is another clue, likewise with regards to the reference to a unique burial method, in the tour, might be intended to direct our attention to Brookes book ‘Elite Legacy’.

Again the Codex could be hinting towards Legacy in regards to the reference to a ‘children’s story’.

There likely is some key stone element in that book towards kick-starting a route towards uncovering Raxxla, to date other than some potential references to the triple deity Artemis, Demeter etc. I’ve not been able to decipher any more.

Although an enjoyable read, it is rather dry and filled with minutiae seemingly trivial details, a lot of the data too might be inaccurate, eg various systems / ship elements don’t exist - at minimum this might be because it was written very earlier than launch, but Brookes was obviously immensely intelligent, and had a sense of humour so I would not rule out he inserted something into the book. So it’s a strong candidate still in my opinion.

Again there is always the issue that we are over thinking elements, or certain aspects we’ve identified are archeological. FD could have inserted certain aspects after-the-fact, to mitigate broken links!

Remember the hypothetical garden design, if correct is likewise evidence of very ‘obvious’ clues having existed in game from the outset that everyone has been totally complacent about.

Granted one does require ’eyes to see’!
From the Codex "some Raxxla seekers insisted that the story's author had cunningly concealed facts about the mysterious locale in his book as hints for those with eyes to see" - I still think that means the name of the system containing Raxxla/Omphalos Rift is a sub anagram of "Princess Astrophel and the Spiralling Stars" (since the only thing we have of that book is it's title!).... that would fit as a clue and I think would also match MB's and DB's sense of humour (IMO impish to the point of Machiavellian). However it doesn't help us because there are hundreds, if not thousands, of subanagrams which could match bubble system names. I did explore that hypothesis but gave up after I'd identified over a hundred system names.

I think if we are going to get anywhere with this puzzle then we need to identify the likely region of space for Milton's "Heavenly Gate", we might then try matching possible system names within that region to see if they are possible sub anagrams to help reeuce the initial search space.

I think it is possible that MB's Legacy might contain clue(s), but on reflection I think it's unlikely, since he did say explicitly "FD did look at a story involving Raxxla, but felt that was a story that should be played out in game rather than as a novel”, and he clearly spent a lot of time matching ED's cosmology to Milton's. Have you put your Milton theory data into a 3D viewing app?
 
From the Codex "some Raxxla seekers insisted that the story's author had cunningly concealed facts about the mysterious locale in his book as hints for those with eyes to see" - I still think that means the name of the system containing Raxxla/Omphalos Rift is a sub anagram of "Princess Astrophel and the Spiralling Stars" (since the only thing we have of that book is it's title!).... that would fit as a clue and I think would also match MB's and DB's sense of humour (IMO impish to the point of Machiavellian). However it doesn't help us because there are hundreds, if not thousands, of subanagrams which could match bubble system names. I did explore that hypothesis but gave up after I'd identified over a hundred system names.

I think if we are going to get anywhere with this puzzle then we need to identify the likely region of space for Milton's "Heavenly Gate", we might then try matching possible system names within that region to see if they are possible sub anagrams to help reeuce the initial search space.

I think it is possible that MB's Legacy might contain clue(s), but on reflection I think it's unlikely, since he did say explicitly "FD did look at a story involving Raxxla, but felt that was a story that should be played out in game rather than as a novel”, and he clearly spent a lot of time matching ED's cosmology to Milton's. Have you put your Milton theory data into a 3D viewing app?
I've just started building a model of the bubble in Blender, to visualize patterns across mythologies/motifs/sectors myself.

For performance reasons it's restricted to the named systems, so not even those from the HD / HIP / Gliese et al. catalogs are present. And there's still the issue of learning Blender in the first place.
 
I've just started building a model of the bubble in Blender, to visualize patterns across mythologies/motifs/sectors myself.

For performance reasons it's restricted to the named systems, so not even those from the HD / HIP / Gliese et al. catalogs are present. And there's still the issue of learning Blender in the first place.
Named-systems-only suits the subanagram hypothesis.
 
From the Codex "some Raxxla seekers insisted that the story's author had cunningly concealed facts about the mysterious locale in his book as hints for those with eyes to see" - I still think that means the name of the system containing Raxxla/Omphalos Rift is a sub anagram of "Princess Astrophel and the Spiralling Stars" (since the only thing we have of that book is it's title!).... that would fit as a clue and I think would also match MB's and DB's sense of humour (IMO impish to the point of Machiavellian). However it doesn't help us because there are hundreds, if not thousands, of subanagrams which could match bubble system names. I did explore that hypothesis but gave up after I'd identified over a hundred system names.

I think if we are going to get anywhere with this puzzle then we need to identify the likely region of space for Milton's "Heavenly Gate", we might then try matching possible system names within that region to see if they are possible sub anagrams to help reeuce the initial search space.

I think it is possible that MB's Legacy might contain clue(s), but on reflection I think it's unlikely, since he did say explicitly "FD did look at a story involving Raxxla, but felt that was a story that should be played out in game rather than as a novel”, and he clearly spent a lot of time matching ED's cosmology to Milton's. Have you put your Milton theory data into a 3D viewing app?

Exactly my thoughts as well, and essentially this is why I attempt to map various concepts from game. Identify key aspects and identify zones were our attention can be best focused, in an effort to identify key elements.

I do have the data in a 3D App; but it won’t support sharing, not without me stumping up some cash! So nope, sorry it’s just going to be 2D images. O7

Concerning the ‘gate’ - within my key hypothesis of the cosmological model, it identifies I believe the location of the Empyrean, it being the highest zone attributable to deities associated with the Sun and or higher creation gods, as well as certain compass points; these positions I’ve found align with the in game Greek compass for North as various other pantheons with similar North / South attributes (in my opinion).

Milton’s Paradise Lost was originally a very dry book for me in my youth / it was taught as poetry, for its linguistic concepts, and or theological links. Again, ED got me back into these classics in a way that’s surprising, seeing how my classical education and scientific practice align, to identify the text’s amazing astronomical and spacial constructions.

The text is so well thought out and it’s evident Milton wanted his readers to orientate and travel through the cosmos in their minds eye. An astonishing accomplishment for that time.

In Milton’s text, as I interpret it; he identifies the gate was essentially upon the West wall of this Empyrean. So technically, my thinking has always been, if you can identify one or two locations from the text in game and identify a clear correlation, one logically ought to be able to orientate and find other aspects!

I also believe Michael Brookes built upon this, and incorporated other aspects from various cultures to flesh it out in game, but likewise reflect upon the writings and Celtic influences of Robert Holstock.

There is a Sheela na gig in this location, whose origins may have links to pre-Christian fertility or a mother goddess, and usually were placed in high places but generally over doors or windows to protect these openings!

She is just next to the Morrigans and slap-bang on the outer rim of the zone of chaos and relatively in close proximity to the Greek compass for North Boreas.

Sheela na gig is also very close to Danu, whose modern etymology not only describes the myth of the Tribe / People of Danu but is associated with water. In that context I wonder if she is an example used by Brookes to denote the ‘waters above’!

There is also very close to this location the system Meliae, which in Greek mythology is either a sea nymph or an ash-tree nymph.

Sheela na gig is part of my unpublished theory involving her and Gilgamesh, as a prototype northern axis and alternate for Satans journey.

If you apply my hypothetical compass assessment, this area is all within the northern upper celestial hemisphere.

This is the general area where Star ship one went down. I don’t think it alone identified Raxxla’ true location - directly, but the reference to a ‘bright place’ sounds like the description of the Empyrean - which was made of pure light, I do feel however it was intended as a gentle nudge to look in this general area.

Map of Starship one incident
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/the-quest-to-find-raxxla.168253/post-10298408

IMG_9714.jpeg


The West Wall of the Empyrean
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/the-quest-to-find-raxxla.168253/post-10332137

Michael R. Coats - 2020 Masters Thesis
IMG_9715.jpeg



*the image below shows the alleged cosmological construction, highlighting a zone in a perceived North / West area likely to contain either Raxxla or the West gate of the Empyrean.
IMG_9666.jpeg


We then have an area not far off relatively, with the system Fall. If you link Fall with Pandemonium, it aligns perfectly with Demeter and Persephone.

Satan fell from the northern part of the West wall of heaven. Paradise, the pendant globe was somewhere close to that location, on the North West wall.

In this context Paradise is in the location associated with Gods good grace and likewise Satan fell from gods favour accordingly and Hell was attributed as being in the South, out of gods favour/grace, there is a reason why Milton attributed such compass points!

This area is also populated by systems named after deities and locations from the Epic of Gilgamesh. I believe this is another reference to Robert Holdstock and his book Ragthorn, which resolves around the ‘thorny branch’ of Gilgamesh, a strange temple dedicated to a triple deity and a magical stone marker over a doorway. The book also references John Milton.

Within this relationship in game I believe that Brookes may have been drawing a comparison between Gilgamesh and Milton’s Satan, who both go on similar journeys.

I believe that Paradise aka Eden aka Raxxla. Is either somewhere between Thetis and Danu, or Thetis and Fall; or somewhere in between Danu and Fall; it’s still a relatively large area.

But generally these two areas I believe denotes the wide area of Empyrean notably it’s North and West boundaries.

If we are to follow Milton precisely then heavens gate is somewhere about the West gate, so another hypothesis could be it ought to be located somewhere between Fall and Danu, Sheela na gig as a protector of doors may advocate a prime location given its close spacial relationship with Starship one!

This area likewise has some interesting systems linked to higher gods mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh.

I’ve not proposed this hypothesis before in its entirety because there is a higher concentration of links in and around the Norse Norns area, it seems more of a focal area - so I’ve been following the data, but that could simply be bias on my part, but I wanted to explore it nonetheless.

My Sheela na gig / Morrigans / Fall theory is a strong secondary possibility, primarily because of the Morrigan’s alignment with the Lost Realms concept yet being so far removed, and yet perfectly placed, but it’s ultimately reliant upon the system Fall being the correct location for the start of Satans journey. If that is true then I suspect we have a location for the West gate.

*the image below shows the extent of the systems named after the Epic of Gilgamesh, in relation to the Fall from Paradise Lost.
phonto.jpeg


*the image below shows the position of the Morrigans in relation to the perceived celestial North and West in relation to Paradise Lost. A zone demonstrating a position for the wall of the Empyrean is included.
phonto.jpeg
 
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Does that tie in at all with @Rochester 's Milton cosmology theory?
Just wondered if MB's apparent antipathy to the Alliance was another hint- might work if the Alliance region matched with Milton's Chaos/Hell

I believe it does. I was waiting for someone else to highlight this first.

Yes in this concept the bubble is an elongated blob, if you apply my cosmology over the top it effectively shifts the axis, although I also suppose Brookes may have been employing a tiered construction.

So red is at the base (Hell) blue at the centre (Chaos) and green towards the top (order / Empyrean).

I believe this correlates also with the shape of Yggdrasil, not just Milton’s cosmology. But yes it correlates.

All of this in my opinion continues to establish the enormity of Brookes work. The construction is breathtaking, I would not be surprised if it is as much part of Raxxla - not just a map towards its location, and very likely is what the codex alludes to as; the state of cosmic enlightenment!

Source: https://youtu.be/1CYA3eLs-lE?si=u5Ft8Qg97idDAIiz
 
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I still think that means the name of the system containing Raxxla/Omphalos Rift is a sub anagram of "Princess Astrophel and the Spiralling Stars"
Given the capitalised letters spell "PASS" that sort of thing is possible.

If you expect it to be pointed directly at a system name that could narrow the search down to the (extremely large!) number of systems named of the form "<one word region name beginning with P> AS-S ..." e.g. Phylucs AS-S b17-1.
 
@Ian Doncaster Thanks Ian...hadn't spotted PASS! (Edit PASS as in permit/KEY)
😔
@Rochester your mention of Starship One and Sheela na gig made me reread my notes and do some googling:

Starship One: After the Starship One sabotage (May 26, 3301) carrying Federal President Jasmina Halsey (& formerly Federal Ambassador to the Alliance) undertaking an outreach tour of current and former Federal frontier systems, including HIP 53688, Tinia, Aleumoxii, 78 Ursae Majoris, Dietri, Su, Furuhjelm I-645, Saga, Delphin, Nanomam, Coriccha, and Ross 860; other destinations were planned, but their names were withheld from the media for security reasons.

There was 24May3301 Galnet Post reported by @simulacrae about an unscheduled Starship One route diversion...after a meeting between Halsey and Mahon on 78 Ursae Majoris ... Halsey made a change in the flight plan and headed towards Azaleach...but got blown up en route.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/the-quest-to-find-raxxla.168253/post-8819129

Some of the thousands of escape pods later recovered from the Lyncis Sector by independent pilots contained Starship One survivors, including Jasmina Halsey.
Starship One's destruction transformed Halsey. Presumed dead for months, Halsey was found alive in her escape pod, & placed in an induced coma while she recovered from her injuries. On April 4, when asked by the media about what it was like to be adrift in space for so long, she stated,
"It was wonderful. Amazing. I saw the universe, and our galaxy within it, as I'd never seen it before, and I felt the presence of the real caretakers of our galaxy. The paradox of their existence – tiny yet gargantuan, fleeting yet eternal. They spoke to me as I drifted in the void. It was amazing. I must share their message."
She later issued a public request for exploration data from across the galaxy to substantiate her claims of meeting "the true architects of creation" and being shown "the infinities of the cosmos", data which later resulted in the discovery of the ruins of the lost "Guardian" civilization
In response to various allegations ("they say that what I experienced is an archetypal conversion story, and that makes it suspect? If what I saw reminds people of historical accounts, doesn't that say something about those experiences?") and Fleet Adm Vincenti defence council claim of her mental incompetence Halsey provided medical documentation from reputable Alliance doctors confirming her sanity.Amid a period of intense scrutiny and controversy over her mental well-being, Halsey announced plans to give up Federal politics and relocate to Alliance space in July 3302.

MB's Legacy novel: As a girl heroine Julia Cavus grew up without toys with a single possession, a book “about a young man’s quest to save a princess from an alien dragon” locked alone each day in the tiny family cell while her parents slaved in the mines. Julia as a girl “dreamed of being the first pilot to discover Raxxla”She hoped to keep her Eagle as she’d grown accustomed to its idiosyncrasies...”whether it was a suitable ship for travelling all the way to Alliance space was another matter”.


So, IMHO MB's apparent antagonism to Alliance was just intended to as a hint towards it (I remember his facial expression in one livestream when talking about carrying certain illegal objects and Alliance space, can't remember which vid offhand and battery down to 3%, not yet showered & dog needs his walk)....the clue from the novel suggests that Raxxla is in Alliance space..matches up with the Halsey move to Alliance space. Her visions were discussed as a potential religious experience -i.e. Paradise Lost. I think the bit about Guardian ruins is obfuscation. Must look at Azaleach and the other named systems in relation to Alliance space....

Edit
Battery down to 2%!
Azaleach is Independent, Sheela na gig is Alliance!!!
 
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Azaleach is Independent, Sheela na gig is Alliance!!!
Remember that the Alliance has grown from just over 200 systems originally to 1277 now, and other faction control will also have changed in the meantime.

Both SNG's Alliance factions are non-native ones which have expanded in - looking at the native factions it will originally have been either Federal or Independent

In Azaleach, Galnet 4 Feb 3302 and 27 April 3302 has the CGs being conducted by the Azaleach Partnership, which suggests that the system was probably under Federal control at the time as well. (From memory I'm fairly sure it was Federal when Halsey was doing her tour)
 
Remember that the Alliance has grown from just over 200 systems originally to 1277 now, and other faction control will also have changed in the meantime.

Both SNG's Alliance factions are non-native ones which have expanded in - looking at the native factions it will originally have been either Federal or Independent

In Azaleach, Galnet 4 Feb 3302 and 27 April 3302 has the CGs being conducted by the Azaleach Partnership, which suggests that the system was probably under Federal control at the time as well. (From memory I'm fairly sure it was Federal when Halsey was doing her tour)
Yes, think you're correct there..and you read my mind. Was wondering what the extent of Alliance space was in 3301!
 
Is Alliance space depicted in blue in-game?
Milton's Satan: "Weighs his spread wings, at leasure to behold Farr off th' Empyreal Heav'n, extended wide In circuit, undetermind square or round, With Opal Towrs and Battlements adorn'd Of living Saphire, once his native Seat; And fast by hanging in a golden Chain This pendant world, in bigness as a Starr Of smallest Magnitude close by the Moon. "

Sapphire is blue...just thinking!
 
Mmm, possibly obfuscation, but clearly a failed hypothesis, though still believe Raxxla is in Alliance space....
Mmm mmm, maybe not. From Wikipedia
Saphire (corundum) "is typically blue, but natural "fancy" sapphires also occur in yellow, purple, orange, and green colors; "parti sapphires" show two or more colors. Red corundum stones also occur, but are called rubies rather than sapphires."
 
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